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Talk:South Gondor

The statement about the rivers Poros and Harnen being the borders of South Gondor is a speculation. Tolkien does not mention its borders. It should be clearly phrased as merely a possibility.

The statement about the climate is a speculation. Karen Wynn Fonstad speculates based on statements by Tolkien about certain points in the map being at the same latitude as points in Europe and in the climate at sich a latitude in Europe at the mediterranen sea. It should be clearly phrased as merely a possibility and the basis on which the speculation is based on should be disclosed.

In the history section the first sentence that implicitly looks back from the End of the Third Age that South Gondor was historically a part of Gondor should be deleted. The chronology should Start in the past and then should move forward. It should be disclosed that South Gondor being "deserted" is a speculation and that the reason why it was deserted (due to wars) is a speculation. Tolkien wrote that it was an"desert land". He did not write that it was a "desert".The fact that "desert land" means deserted land is a possibility based on the translations of "desert land" in the german and durch translations of The Lord of the Rings and the fact that Tolkien knew both of those languages and that he checked the translations Ingo those two languages and that the presence of an ocean, a mountain range and the two rivers Poros and Harnen and based on Tolkiens statements of places being t the same latitude as places in Europe near the Mediterranen sea makes it unlikely that Harondor was a desert. It should be disclosed that it is not explicitly written that Haud-in-Gwanȗr was in Harondor, but that a card in MECCG for Haud-in-Gwanȗr merely had Harondor dritten on it and that MECCG was made by the same company that made MERP and that the maps for MERP and MERP Southern Gondor - The Land state that it was in the northern shore of the river Poros (and thus probably in Ithilien). Apppendix A discloses that Folcred and Fastred died in the battle on the northern shore of the river Poros. It is unlikely that their bodies were Transportes to the other side of the river to be buried on the southern shore of the river Poros (a possible border). Akhorahil 09:56, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

I believe that I pretty much cleaned it up and provided references and disclosed which statements are speculations and what those speculations are based on. There is much more detail about the places in MERP Southern Gondor - The Land that could be added in that section about that MERP Module. --Akhorahil 16:12, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

This article needs less MERP, not more. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:44, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
There is very little information about South Gondor (Harondor) in the Lord of the Rings and in other works written by J.R.R. Tolkien. I could add in a footnote that J.R.R. Tolkien once indicated that the Mouths of Anduin are at the latitude of ancient Troy. Like in the Atlas of Middle Earth this could be used to speculate about the flora and fauna being similar to that of Portugal. If people are interested in further information how South Gondor could have been then MERP is almost the only place where more Information can be found. I put the information from MERP in a separate section that clearly states that it is from MERP and deliberately kept that to a list of cities, hills, rivers or roads in Harondor, so that if readers stumble over the name of one of those cities, hills, rivers or roads on the internet they know that it is from MERP and not from J.R.R. Tolkien. --Akhorahil 15:34, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I would appreciate the courtesy of announcing intended changes and to discuss those changes prior to making those changes. I will take the time to provide my comments on changes made by the user Mith rather than just undoing them or starting an editing war. --Akhorahil 17:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I am against the change made by the user Mith that moved the History section before the Geography section. On the pages for Ithilien, the Shire, Enedwaith and Minhiriath the Geography section is also before the History section and this is the case on other pages as well where the Geography section is called Location or something similar and is also before the History section. The order of the sections should be consistent with that on other pages and I think it is more logical to begin with more basic Information, such as the geography (e.g. the probable location and borders of a region) before the history of things that happened in that region. --Akhorahil 17:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I see no added value in the deletions made by the user Mith of the reasons behind the speculation about the climate in Harondor. Now only the reference to The Atlas of Middle-Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad is left over as a reference for the speculation that it is possible Harondor had a climate, that was fluctuating between mild winter and very hot and dry summers. Not all readers will have access to this atlas and will be able to read that Karen Wynn Fonstad speculates that Middle-earth was probably approximately at the latitude of Europe and that Tolkien mentions winds blowing from the west in several instances and that it is possible that Tolkien had the constellation of a mediterranean climate in mind when he created the bay of Belfalas. I provided the reasons on which my speculation about the climate was based on and Tolkien provides the reason of a wind blowing from the sea and the protection by the mountains for a mild climate in Ithilien in the chapter Of Herbs and stewed rabbit in the LOTR. In my opinion the reasons for a speculation should be disclosed so that readers can make an informed judgement if they concur with that theory or not. The regions in Portugal or in Andlusia in the south of Spain have a similar geography (ocean to the west and to the south-west and hills or mountains in the east or to the north) and some readers will be familiar with the climate and the geography in those regions and will be better able to imagine the possible climate in Harondor. Maybe some form of compromise is possible. --Akhorahil 17:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I have no problems with the changes in the Etymology section made by the user Mith, because I never wrote anyhing in this section, I am not an expert in etymology and I do not have access to the books or journals that contain useful Information for the etymology. I am happy to leave it to other users to verify and change the Contents in this section. --Akhorahil 17:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

The reference to the Middle-Earth Collectible Card Game (MECCG) card for Haudh in Gwanûr should mention that that fact that "Harondor" was written on the card is probably an error, because MECCG was created by Iron Crown Enterprises that also created MERP and that Haudh in Gwanûr is both said to the on the north bank of the river Poros in MERP Southern Gondor: the Land and is on the north bank of the river Poros in the map in MERP Sea-Lords of Gondor. --Akhorahil 17:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I am fine with the first sentence of the summary of the additional information in the MERP module Sothern Gondor: The Land. However, the second sentence can be read to imply that Haudh in Gwanûr is one of those ""sites in Harondor" that are mentioned in the the first sentence. That is not correct, because MERP Southern Gondor: The Land correctly states that Haudh in Gwanûr is on the northern side of the river Poros and that the river Poros is the border between Ithilien and Harondor and does not Claim that Haud in Gwanûr is located in Harondor. --Akhorahil 17:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I have some questions and objections relating to the changes made by the user Sage 13:09 on 13 October 2020. Why did he delete the reference to the General Map of Middle-earth at the end of the sentence about the possible borders? The General Map of Middle-earth was the secondary reference for the statement that the probable northern border was the river Poros and that the probable southern border was the river Harnen. On this map one can see that North Ithilien is written on the map on the northern side of the river Poros quite close to the river. On this map one can see that Near Harad is written on the map south-east of the river Harnen and that Umbar is written further in the south of the river Harnen. In addition the General Map of Middle-earth was the only reference for the statements that the Ephel Duáth was probably the eastern border and that the river Anduin and the bay of Belfalas were probably the western border. On this map one can see, that Nurn is written east of the Ephel Dúath and that Lebennin is written on the western side of the Anduin and that Bay of Belfalas is written on the sea to the west. --Akhorahil 16:37, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I removed the first reference because it was redundant. Both consecutive sentences use the same reference so the first ref tag wasn't necessary. The one ref tag applies to both the previous sentences. Sage 18:56, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

What does the user Sage intend to say with his comment "It is not known that the map is an in-universe document" that accompanied his changes? It is irrelevant if the General Map of Middle-earth is an in-universe document or if it is an out-of-universe document, because the Map of Middle-earth was published as part of The Lord of the Rings and it was drawn by Christopher Tolkien based on a map that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien. As a consequence it is a valid reference, regardless of being in-universe or out-of-universe. The maps that were published with various editions of The Lord of the Rings are very often used as references in the Geography sections on various pages for various regions or countries on Tolkien Gateway to describe the location or borders of a region. --Akhorahil 16:37, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Why did the user Sage delete "maps from the time" after "It was described on"? After his deletions the sentence is grammatically incorrect, because it now reads "It was described on the time of the War of the Ring as a "desert land"". The only source in the english language Version of the Lord of the Rings where "desert land" is mentioned is the General Map of Middle-earth that includes South Gondor (Harondor) and Umbar that is included in the book. The changes made by the user Sage should be undone. --Akhorahil 16:37, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I do agree that the texts on the map are canon and that the map applies to the late Third Age but I disagree with the previous phrasing. It seemed to sugge4st that the Map we have form LOTR was a facsimile rendering from a map made during the WR. While it is supposed that The Hobbit is a translation and edit of Bilbo's diary and the Appendices and poems from Tom Bombadil being excerpts from the Red Book, there is no mention about any map-making in Gondor or Shire or whether maps appear in the Red Book, or the source of the maps, if it is a translation or rendering from some document. It could as well be a "reconstruction" made by the translator of the Red Book. So the previous phrasing was a very bold interpretation about what the maps are inside the legendarium. So it's better to avoid the mention about any "maps" in the text of the article, according to the in-universe convention we are following. Other than that, I dont object about the canonicity of the information it displays. Sage 18:56, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for your explanations. I have not problem with not specifying the map at the end of the first sentence, because it is also used as a reference at the end of the second sentence and readers can assume that the reference at the end of the first sentence may also apply to the first sentence. I have no problem with not mentioning the map in the text of the page and only using it as a reference. Since you agree that the map applies to the late Third Age I will correct the sentence as far as proper grammar is concerned and mention that "desert" land refers to the late Third Age. --Akhorahil 20:09, 13 October 2020 (UTC)