Talk:Blue Wizards

I don't think it's all that controversial that Gandalf mentioned the Blue Wizards. I disagree that Gandalf would ever have revealed the number and names of the Wizards to anyone so readily, but the Blue Wizards are (IIRC) in the LOTR Appendices. Thankfully they're not named - if they had the right to Unfinished Tales and named them as "Alatar and Pallando" in the film I would have been very annoyed!-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  16:40, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, according to Bratman and Brennan Croft, the name "Blue Wizards" does not appear in the LotR. But it might be worth to check!--Morgan 16:44, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I hadn't thought of that. However, with the source, it can stay, imo. --Ederchil ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edits)} 17:34, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I think the film makers can get away with it. LOTR does say there were five wizards and the Tolkien Estate can't sue over the attribution of the colour blue to the two unnamed wizards.-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  17:40, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

They certainly try to get away with it. But as Janet Croft says (who is credited as advisor to PJ's The Hobbit): "it’s okay to say five, and that they went east, but not to say they were blue'" (my emphasis). So, the controversy is there, and from a notable source -- nothing to argue about! --Morgan 17:59, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that there isn't a controversy, I'm joining in it! ;) I disagree with Janet Brennan Croft; I think it is OK to say that they were blue. If it was a problem, they could have easily have used a different colour to describe them.-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  18:08, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

The texts says that in the last writings, the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age, and were called Morinethar and Romestano in Middle Earth. However, there's a note of the same period (also given in HoME XII: Last Writings) that contradicts pretty much all this: "No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already overmindful of this) came first and alone." That is, they had no names (other than, possibly, their original names Alatar and Pallando) and arrived after Saruman. So, what version should be chosen? —Unsigned comment by 95.22.115.34 (talk • contribs).

I don't think we need to choose a version. As the introduction of the article states now, "Tolkien's conception of the two Blue Wizards changed dramatically between his earlier and later writings".--Morgan 13:55, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes but the problem is, there's not one early version and one later version that overrided the other. There are actually one early version, and two (contradictory) later versions. The article only mentions one of them.—Unsigned comment by 95.22.115.34 (talk • contribs).

Thanks for the clarification. I'll see if I can draw editor KingAragorn's attention to the issue, who rewrote this article substantially quite recently. P.S. Why not create an account at Tolkien Gateway? :-) --Morgan 15:53, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I thought about creating an account, but I don't really edit much, unless I just happen to stumble about something that I know well. In this case, it may not be even neccesary to edit the article much, since the other late version agrees with the early one. What about presenting both as alternate stories, instead of one being the early, rejected one, and the other the definitive?—Unsigned comment by 95.22.115.34 (talk • contribs).

I spoke with KingAragorn, and he will give the matter attention.--Morgan 22:06, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

When Did the Blue Wizards Arrive in Middle Earth?

The article gives two approximate years, c. T.A. 1000 in the early writings, and c. S.A. 1600 in the late writings; but in the late writings (i.e., Peoples of Middle Earth), Tolkien says that their original mission (in which they failed) was to find Sauron's hiding place in the East "after his first fall". Sauron first fell at the end of the First Age, and went into hiding in the East, returning to the West as Annatar c. S.A. 500. Sauron was again defeated in S.A. 1701, and driven from Eriador, but then he seems to have taken refuge in Mordor, not hidden himself in the East. He apparently rebuilt his power in Mordor, and was again defeated by the Numenorians in S.A. 3262, and taken captive to Numenor. His physical form was destroyed in the downfall of Numenor, but his spirit fled to Mordor, where he again took physical form, and he was again defeated by the Last Alliance in S.A. 3441.

Doesn't all this mean that (according to the late account) the Blue Wizards must have reached Middle Earth sometime before S.A. 500? Why does the article say S.A. 1600? What have I overlooked?

Jdcrutch 18:52, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

I would imagine Tolkien did not regard the end of the First Age as Sauron's first fall. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 17:43, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Prose

Unlike all other articles, this one is writtten from a reader's point of view. I suggest choosing one version (perhaps the latest) and put everything else under "Other versions" as well as footnotes.
Note that the term "Blue Wizards" appears only in the UT text. The "penciled notes" on the reverse side doesn't assign a color to the "Two Wizards", so perhaps a "Blue Wizards" article should concentrate on the UT version. Sage 08:39, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

After thinking about this I suggest maintaining a Blue Wizards article about Allatar and Pallando and all the UT tradition. We can mention Romestamo and Morinehtar in a secondary "Other versions" section and disperse information about them in other articles (Wizards, Easterlings, East, Second Age etc). Tolkien himself seemed unsure while writing his notes about them, as if he was interpreting contradicting traditions and hearsay (Indeed, the Two Wizards seem so elusive that only rumors about them would reach the Red Book or any Fourth Age "source").
I think Tolkien's prose entitles us to write about them in a similar manner, with weasel words like "It is said that...", as legends. This way we can avoid interpretation, speculation and OR, and choosing or favoring one version. Cf. the article on Elfstone where I handled a similarly challenging matter. Sage 08:57, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree this needs rewriting - the article is currently an essay on Tolkien's texts rather than the characters themselves. I agree with your approach. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 08:35, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

This one is particularly challenging to keep "in universe", but your approach sounds like a good compromise. Since I wrote this 'essay' and regularly link people to it who ask about the Blue Wizards, I might move it elsewhere on the web. -- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  11:33, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I notice that Tolkien mentions "Blue Wizards" or "Ithryn Luin" only once in his notes. In all others, mentioning Allatar, Romestamo etc the 2 wizards aren't assigned a color, and each text is independent from the other (one doesn't seem to elaborate on the previous one). To say that the "Alatar and Pallando were the Blue Wizards" is syncretism. Sage 09:55, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

New names

Fresh publication of “The Nature of Middle Earth” by Carl Hostetter mentions FA names of what appear the two blue wizards as Palacendo and Haimenar, being deployed by Oromë in DB 866, to defend the Quendi from early Melkor. Page 95. I’m not familiar with how this site manages conflicting or inconsistent details on Tolkien’s less-published writings but this little snippet is pretty interesting, as it shows the Istari (and in this case Melian) deployed by the Valar against Melkor at a very early date! —Unsigned comment by 108.162.245.231 (talk • contribs).

Thanks, I noticed that. We are slowly including the new info around the wiki. --LorenzoCB 07:26, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Indeed; it makes sense that these two additional Guardians of Cuiviénen were the Blue Wizards, given that Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast were there. But we can't say definitively that Palacendo and Haimenar were the Blue Wizards, as Tolkien never specifically identified them as such (unlike Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast). So if this information is included in the article, it should be hedged using words like "maybe" because it is, ultimately, speculation. Informed speculation, but speculation nonetheless. Protospace 06:59, 24 September 2021 (UTC)