User:Mord: Difference between revisions

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==Unanswerable questions that keep me up nights==
==Unanswerable questions that keep me up nights==
===Fourth Age===
===Fourth Age===
*When exactly did Celeborn leave Middle-earth? ([[User:Mord/Of the Departure of Celeborn|My speculation on the subject]])
*What happened to Elladan and Elrohir?
*What happened to Elladan and Elrohir?
*When exactly did Celeborn leave Middle-earth?
**Did Círdan (and literally all other remaining Elves of the First Age) actually take ship with Celeborn, or is that an overly literal interpretation of "the last living memory of the Elder Days?" Bombadil and Treebeard are still around, after all.
{| style="margin:0 auto;" class="collapsible collapsed toccolours" width="100%"
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! align=left | My speculation on the subject
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| • [[The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen]]: "[Arwen] went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent."
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| • Celeborn left East Lórien no later than FoA 120, since he was gone by that time. Notably, Galadriel is explicitly described as having "passed away" while Celeborn is "gone," suggesting the possibility that he had not yet passed into the West.
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| • [[Appendix B]], ''The Great Years'': "But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm [East Lórien] and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond."
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| • Between leaving East Lórien and arriving in Mithlond, Celeborn stayed in Rivendell with Elladan and Elrohir.
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| • [[The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen]]: "We [Aragorn and Arwen] met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond where none now walk. [...] The uttermost choice is before you [Arwen]: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."
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| • As of FoA 120, Aragorn believed that either Rivendell generally or the garden of Elrond specifically were abandoned. Considering that Rivendell is often described as the "house of Elrond" I think "garden of Elrond" is meant as a metonymy for Rivendell. If not, I don't know why the sons (and father-in-law) of Elrond and the folk of Rivendell would decline to walk in his garden after his departure. Aragorn also believes that there are still ships in the Grey Havens, so Círdan must not yet have left Middle-earth.
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| • [[Appendix A]], ''(iii) Eriador, Arnor, and the heirs of Isildur'': "At the Grey Havens dwelt Círdan the Shipwright, and some say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Círdan or in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they are few."
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| • We can tell this passage is written by a Hobbit, owing to a reference to "years before '''we''' came to the Shire" earlier in the paragraph, so it is likely that this passage would have been part of the Thain's Book composed in FoA 63. Later additions made in Gondor and included in Findegil's copy of FoA 171 are unlikely to have adopted the voice of a Hobbit in this context, so "now" must refer to some time before FoA 63. Even at this time, the Hobbits are unsure if any High Elves remain in Lindon at all.
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| • [[Note on the Shire Records]]: "There [in Rivendell], though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth."
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| • As of FoA 171, either Celeborn had not yet left Middle-earth, he had done so but there were no witnesses, or there were witnesses but their account never reached Findegil. Since Celeborn took "the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth" with him, implicitly all other Elves who remembered the First Age also were on the same ship, particularly  Círdan. It's possible that there were no witnesses to the departure because all the remaining residents of Mithlond were aboard the ship.
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| • Tolkien's choice of language in this passage is reminiscent of a passage from the tale of Amroth and Nimrodel in Unfinished Tales: "The light Elven-ship was torn from its moorings and driven into the wild waters towards the coasts of Umbar. No tidings of it were ever heard in Middle-earth; but the Elven-ships made for this journey did not founder, and doubtless it left the Circles of the World and came at last to Eressëa."
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| • [[Appendix B]], ''The Third Age'': "I [Círdan] will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails."
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| • For it to be literally true that Celeborn took "the last living memory [etc.]" and that Círdan left on the "last ship," Legolas and Gimli would have had to first depart Middle-earth on their own ship, placing the earliest possible departure for Celeborn et al after FoA 120. Notably, Legolas built his own ship in Ithilien rather than depart for the Grey Havens in the usual manner of the High-elven folk. This offers the interpretation that Círdan departed on the last ship to sail ''from Mithlond'', not the last ship ever to depart Middle-earth. If it is literally true that Círdan left on the very last ship, any Elves who chose to remain in Middle-earth at the time of his departure must have already resigned themselves to fade there; otherwise they may have later departed from other ports on ships of their own.
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| • Taking all available evidence into account, and assuming literal truth where convenient, it seems to me the likeliest chain of events is as follows:
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| • Celeborn wearied of East Lórien and removed to Rivendell well before FoA 120. Since Celeborn's reign in East Lórien is described as "a few years" while the sons of Elrond's tenure in Rivendell is "long," I would guess some time after FoA 10, no later than FoA 40.
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| • Before 1 March FoA 120, the last remaining residents of Rivendell abandoned the refuge (even those who did not intend to take ship). Celeborn and the sons of Elrond may have been among the last to depart, and may have departed together. I think this is likely, since the sons of Elrond would have inherited their father's responsibility to the people of Rivendell, while Celeborn was only there to see the twins in the first place.
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| • I don't believe Rivendell would have been abandoned earlier than FoA 118 or so, since there doesn't seem to be precedent for Elves to linger for long at the Grey Havens between their arrival and departure, but there was enough time for news to reach Minas Tirith that Rivendell was emptied. For this same reason, though it's possible that Celeborn could have left Rivendell long before the general abandonment of the refuge, I don't think it's likely - we know he could not have left Middle-earth before FoA 120, so why would he want to spend any considerable length of time in Mithlond by himself rather than Rivendell with his family?
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| • After a delay to allow Legolas to build his own ship in Ithilien - perhaps as much as a year - the Last Ship departed. This ship bore Celeborn, Círdan, every Elf of the First Age (including Glorfindel, if he had not already departed), and the last residents of Mithlond. '''If''' any of the Elves of Rivendell and Mithlond chose to remain in Middle-earth, they dispersed into wild places far from the eyes of Men. No Man or Hobbit ever learned of the day on which the Last Ship departed.
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| • Totally unsupported theory warning: I believe that at most one of the sons of Elrond was aboard the ship when it left, possibly neither. I don't think Celeborn would make such a point of spending his last century in Middle-earth with them if he expected to spend the rest of time with them in Eressëa. Also, there's precedent for Half-Elven twins to choose different fates. Even the twins' names, Elladan ("Elf-Man") and Elrohir ("Elf-Knight"), suggest that at least one is destined to choose the fate of Men - though to be fair, these names also reflect their Half-Elven heritage, so this is far from definitive.
|}
*Did any Noldor remain in Middle-earth after the White Ship left? The Silmarillion suggests not, Appendix A hedges.  
*Did any Noldor remain in Middle-earth after the White Ship left? The Silmarillion suggests not, Appendix A hedges.  
**If so, what about after the Last Ship?
**If so, what about after the Last Ship?
***Who counts as a Noldo for this purpose (e.g. the sons of Elrond, Noldor-blooded Galadhrim of Lórien)?
***Who counts as a Noldo for this purpose? (The sons of Elrond? Noldor-blooded Galadhrim)?
**Did any Eldar choose to fade in Middle-earth rather than leave bodily (e.g. Thranduil)?
**Did any Eldar choose to fade in Middle-earth rather than leave bodily (e.g. Thranduil)?
**Did any Elves build their own ships (cf. Legolas) after the "Last" Ship?  
**Did any Elves build their own ships (cf. Legolas) after the "Last" Ship?  
**Did any Silvans or Avari choose to go West?
**Did any Silvans or Avari choose to go West?
***Did Avari have the grace to go West?
***Did Avari have the grace to go West?
***If not, do Silvans count as Eldar or Avari?
***If not, do Silvans count as Eldar?


===Third Age===
===Third Age===
*Which four of the Seven Rings were consumed by dragonfire? The only one we know for sure survived is the Ring of the Longbeards.
*Which four of the Seven Rings were consumed by dragonfire? The only one we know for sure survived is the Ring of the Longbeards.
*Who were the Nine Nazgûl?
*Who were the Nine Nazgûl?
**Was the Witch-king truly of Númenórean descent? Tolkien's final word on the subject, which is buried pretty much as obscurely as anything LotR-related could possibly be while still being known to the public, was literally "probably."
**Was the Witch-king truly of Númenórean descent? Tolkien's final word on the subject (which is buried as deeply as anything Tolkien-related could possibly be while still being available to the public) was literally "probably."
**Was Khamûl a nom de guerre that described only the Ringwraith, or was it in some way derived from his original "mortal" identity?
**Was "Khamûl" a nom de guerre that described only the Ringwraith, or did this name derive from his original "mortal" identity?
**Were the Nine the same nine Men to whom Sauron initially gifted the Rings, or was there some turnover between the initial recipients and the Nazgûl who served Sauron during the War of the Ring?
**Were all nine of the Men to whom Sauron gave a Ring in the Second Age serving as Nazgûl during the War of the Ring, or was there turnover?
 
===Second Age===
*Who actually slew Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance? Gil-galad, Elendil, or Isildur?


===First Age===
===First Age===
*Why didn't Orodreth send Finduilas to Círdan for safekeeping at the same time as Gil-galad?
*Why didn't Orodreth send Finduilas to Círdan for safekeeping at the same time as Gil-galad?
**Related: what years were Finduilas and Gil-galad born?  
**What years were Finduilas and Gil-galad born?  
{| style="margin:0 auto;" class="collapsible collapsed toccolours" width="100%"
{| style="margin:0 auto;" class="collapsible collapsed toccolours" width="100%"
|-
|-
! align=left | My speculation on the subject
! align=left | My speculation on the subject
|-
|-
| • Finduilas was already an adult when Minas Tirith fell to Sauron in {{FA|456}} so there was no need to protect her in that way, whereas Gil-galad was a child (somewhere between 20ish and 40ish years old).
| • Finduilas could have been an adult when Minas Tirith fell to Sauron in {{FA|456}} so there was no need to protect her in that way, whereas we know Gil-galad was a child (less than 50 years old).
|-
|-
| • Finduilas may have already been betrothed to (or otherwise romantically involved with) Gwindor at this point, which would give her a motive to remain on Tol Sirion while Dorthonion was being overrun.
| • Finduilas may have already been betrothed to (or otherwise romantically involved with) Gwindor at this point, which would give her a motive to remain on Tol Sirion while Dorthonion was being overrun.
|-
|-
| • We know that some of Angrod's (and presumably Aegnor's) people also went to the Havens after the fall of Dorthonion in {{FA|455}}, so Orodreth's family would not be alone among the Noldor of the House of Finarfin in forsaking Nargothrond.
| • We know that some of Angrod's people went to the Havens after the fall of Dorthonion in {{FA|455}}, so Orodreth's family would not be alone among the Noldor of the House of Finarfin in forsaking Nargothrond.
|-
|-
| • The family could potentially have reunited after the Sons of Fëanor were expelled from Nargothrond in {{FA|465}}, but West Beleriand was still dangerous and such a journey may have been considered too risky.
| • The family could potentially have reunited after the Sons of Fëanor were expelled from Nargothrond in {{FA|465}} and the Union of Maedhros cleansed Beleriand in preparation for the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
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|-
| • Maybe Gil-galad and his mother just had no desire to return to Orodreth, or after {{FA|490}} recognized that the bridge was a bad call and wanted no part of it. Big oof in that case.
| • It could be that the family did not reunite in the period of safety between FA 465 and {{FA|472}} because Gil-galad was still very young, or because all the Elves would have known that this momentary peace was merely a prelude to another Great Battle. After the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Morgoth had free rein in Beleriand and the land was too dangerous for women and children to travel.
|}
|}
*Who is the elder: Elros or Elrond?
*Who is the elder: Elros or Elrond?
*What was the true fate of Tuor and Idril?
**Does the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl relate to them in any way?


==Things I like==
==Things I like==

Revision as of 06:14, 7 September 2021

I used to be the anonymous editor 75.118.149.152 (contribs) (talk), but I grew a name of my own.

Unanswerable questions that keep me up nights

Fourth Age

  • When exactly did Celeborn leave Middle-earth? (My speculation on the subject)
  • What happened to Elladan and Elrohir?
  • Did any Noldor remain in Middle-earth after the White Ship left? The Silmarillion suggests not, Appendix A hedges.
    • If so, what about after the Last Ship?
      • Who counts as a Noldo for this purpose? (The sons of Elrond? Noldor-blooded Galadhrim)?
    • Did any Eldar choose to fade in Middle-earth rather than leave bodily (e.g. Thranduil)?
    • Did any Elves build their own ships (cf. Legolas) after the "Last" Ship?
    • Did any Silvans or Avari choose to go West?
      • Did Avari have the grace to go West?
      • If not, do Silvans count as Eldar?

Third Age

  • Which four of the Seven Rings were consumed by dragonfire? The only one we know for sure survived is the Ring of the Longbeards.
  • Who were the Nine Nazgûl?
    • Was the Witch-king truly of Númenórean descent? Tolkien's final word on the subject (which is buried as deeply as anything Tolkien-related could possibly be while still being available to the public) was literally "probably."
    • Was "Khamûl" a nom de guerre that described only the Ringwraith, or did this name derive from his original "mortal" identity?
    • Were all nine of the Men to whom Sauron gave a Ring in the Second Age serving as Nazgûl during the War of the Ring, or was there turnover?

Second Age

  • Who actually slew Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance? Gil-galad, Elendil, or Isildur?

First Age

  • Why didn't Orodreth send Finduilas to Círdan for safekeeping at the same time as Gil-galad?
    • What years were Finduilas and Gil-galad born?
  • Who is the elder: Elros or Elrond?
  • What was the true fate of Tuor and Idril?
    • Does the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl relate to them in any way?

Things I like

  • FAQ of the Rings – Mostly great information and some interesting speculation about the Rings of Power.
  • The Last Ringbearer – The very best fan fiction ever written, and possibly the only work of fan fiction with genuine literary merit.
  • My favorite characters in the Legendarium: Círdan, Celeborn, Elmo. I like the ones who don't get a lot of attention but whose efforts in the background were nonetheless essential.
  • Reference templates
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