User:Mord

I used to be the anonymous editor 75.118.149.152 (contribs) (talk), but I grew a name of my own.

Unanswerable questions that keep me up nights

Fourth Age

• When exactly did Celeborn leave Middle-earth?

Similar figurative language may also apply regarding Círdan's "last ship." It is remarkable that Legolas would choose to build his own ship rather than depart from Mithlond. Perhaps Legolas' decision was influenced by his long life among the Elves east of the Misty Mountains, who maintained their own haven in Edhellond until TA 1981 and may have had their own traditions regarding departures.

My speculation on the subject
Evidence
• Appendix B, The Third Age: "I [Círdan] will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails."
• Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age: "I [Círdan] will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails."
Around TA 1000, Círdan stated his intent to remain in Mithlond until no remaining Elves wished to depart Middle-earth.
• Appendix B, The Great Years: "But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm [East Lórien] and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond."
"A few years" after FoA 1, Celeborn left East Lórien for Rivendell to live with Elladan and Elrohir.
• Appendix A, (iii) Eriador, Arnor, and the heirs of Isildur: "At the Grey Havens dwelt Círdan the Shipwright, and some say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Círdan or in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they are few."
We can tell this passage was written by a Hobbit, owing to a reference to "years before we came to the Shire" earlier in the paragraph. It is likely that this passage would have been part of the Thain's Book composed in FoA 63, because there is no reason for later additions made in Gondor and first included in Findegil's copy of FoA 171 to have been written in the authorial voice of a Hobbit. "Now" must refer to FoA 63, meaning that at that time, the Hobbits were unsure if any High Elves remained in Lindon at all, but they did believe Círdan remained in Middle-earth.
• The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: "We [Aragorn and Arwen] met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond where none now walk. [...] The uttermost choice is before you [Arwen]: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."
As of 1 March FoA 120, Aragorn believed that either Rivendell generally or the garden of Elrond specifically were abandoned. Rivendell is often described as the "house of Elrond," so it is likely that "the garden of Elrond" is a metonymy for Rivendell; there is no reason for the sons (and father-in-law) of Elrond, and the Elves in general, to decline to walk in Elrond's garden if they still dwelt in Rivendell. Aragorn also believed that there was at least one ship in the Grey Havens, meaning Círdan must not yet have left Middle-earth.
• Appendix B, Later Events Concerning the Members of the Fellowship of the Ring: "[After the Passing of King Elessar] Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea."
Before the end of FoA 120, Legolas left Middle-earth. He departed from Ithilien, not Mithlond.
• The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: "[Arwen] went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent."
Galadriel had "passed away" while Celeborn was "gone," suggesting the possibility that he had not yet left Middle-earth. This passage could refer to any time after 1 March FoA 120 and before the (nebulously defined) beginning of Spring FoA 121.
• Note on the Shire Records: "There [in Rivendell], though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth."
This section is about Findegil's copy of FoA 171, so as of that year, either Celeborn had not yet left Middle-earth, he had done so but there were no witnesses, or he had done so and there were witnesses but their account never reached Findegil. The past tense of the last clauses - "he sought," "with him went" - suggests that the departure may have already taken place.
Tolkien's language here regarding the untold journeys of Elven ships is reminiscent of a passage from the tale of Amroth and Nimrodel in Unfinished Tales: "The light Elven-ship was torn from its moorings and driven into the wild waters towards the coasts of Umbar. No tidings of it were ever heard in Middle-earth; but the Elven-ships made for this journey did not founder, and doubtless it left the Circles of the World and came at last to Eressëa."
Analysis
If Celeborn took "the last living memory of the Elder Days" with him and Círdan departed on the "last ship," the two would necessarily have left on the same ship, the last to leave Mithlond. This much is beyond any reasonable doubt. However, there are ambiguities that allow for the possibility that this was not the last ship to leave Middle-earth.
We have reason to doubt the literal truth of the statement that Celeborn took "the last living memory of the Elder Days" with him: as far as we have any reason to believe, Treebeard still lived, as did Bombadil. It is likely that the phrase is meant to be intepreted figuratively, as "the last living memory of the Elder Days among the Children of Ilúvatar." Even if Treebeard and Bombadil are not considered to possess "living memories" for this purpose, there is no reasonable interpretation that allows Celeborn to leave Middle-earth while Círdan remains behind.
Implicitly, if Legolas could build his own ship, other Elves could do the same. One possibility is that Legolas' grey ship on the Anduin was the only one of its kind in the Fourth Age, and all the Elves who dwelled near the Anduin (in Ithilien, the Woodland Realm, East Lórien, and Lórien) who were of a mind to depart rather than fade in Middle-earth were aboard. If it is taken as literally true that Círdan did indeed leave on the last ship, and also taken as true that other Elves chose to build their own ships in the manner of Legolas, it is necessary that the last of these other Elves departed prior to Celeborn.
Another possibility is that Legolas' grey ship was not the only one of its kind, and Círdan's "last ship" was meant as the "last ship from Mithlond." His description of his mission given in the The Silmarillion explicitly refers to "guarding the Havens," which gives some credence to this interpetation. However, the account of the end of the Third Age in the The Silmarillion contradicts that of The Lord of the Rings, so too much weight cannot be given to it.*
The phrasing of the description of Lórien in FoA 120-121 ("Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone") may lend credence to Aragorn's belief that Mithlond was not abandoned as of FoA 120. Tolkien chose specifically to describe Galadriel and Celeborn's absences from the land differently, implying that they were qualitatively different in some way. Galadriel had gone into the West by this time, so the most obvious possible difference would be that Celeborn had not yet done so. If it is taken as true that Celeborn had not yet left Middle-earth as of the death of Arwen, he must have lingered in Rivendell or Mithlond at least until March of FoA 120 (perhaps as late as the coming of Spring in FoA 121).
Perhaps Aragorn was incorrect and Mithlond was already abandoned at the time of his death. This is unlikely, because there are few who would have better reason to be informed of goings-on in Mithlond than the King of Arnor in the midst of an attempt to repopulate the nearby cities of Annúminas and Fornost. (Mithlond, once abandoned by the Elves, could become an incredibly valuable port for commerce between Gondor and a renascent Arnor.) However, if Mithlond were abandoned at that time, Círdan could not possibly have departed on the literal "last ship," because Legolas had yet to depart.
If it is not necessary that Círdan left on the literal last ship (and undue emphasis is not placed on Tolkien's phrasing as earlier), Celeborn may well have left Middle-earth at any time following the departure of the White Ship, allowing at a minimum "a few years" for him to grow weary of his realm in East Lórien and make a brief stop in Rivendell to bid farewell to his grandsons. Depending on whose ignorance is assumed, the earliest possible date of Círdan's departure can be reckoned at several points. If Aragorn is incorrect but Pippin is not, Círdan could not have left before FoA 63. If Aragorn is correct, Círdan could not have left before FoA 120. If Findegil is incorrect, Círdan may not have left even as of FoA 171.
Setting an upper bound for the date of departure requires that Findegil was correct in his use of the past tense in FoA 171. The description of the ship that nearly bore away Amroth - "No tidings of it were ever heard in Middle-earth" - sets a precedent for Elven ships departing without those who remain in Middle-earth seeing them go. Amroth's ship left no witnesses because it bore away the last residents of Edhellond; perhaps Celeborn's ship left no witnesses because it bore away the last residents of Mithlond.
The lower and upper bounds of the date of Celeborn and Círdan's departure from Middle-earth can be set with the following assumptions: both Aragorn and Pippin were correct about the state of settlement in Mithlond at their respective times, Tolkien's choice of language was deliberate in his description of the absences of Galadriel and Celeborn from Lórien, and the narrative parallels between the Note on the Shire Records and Unfinished Tales are deliberate. Under these assumptions, Celeborn left Middle-earth at some time between FoA 120 and FoA 171.
* The Silmarillion implies that Círdan's "last ship" was identical with the White Ship and states that when the bearers of the Three Rings departed on it, "an end was come for the Eldar of story and of song." In The Lord of the Rings, Círdan did not take the White Ship. For both accounts to be true, Círdan must not be counted among "the Eldar of story and of song," which is highly unlikely. Tolkien must have changed his mind in this matter.

• What happened to Elladan and Elrohir?
• Did any Noldor remain in Middle-earth after the White Ship left? The Silmarillion suggests not, Appendix A hedges.
  • If so, what about after the Last Ship?
    • Who counts as a Noldo for this purpose (e.g. the sons of Elrond, Noldor-blooded Galadhrim of Lórien)?
  • Did any Eldar choose to fade in Middle-earth rather than leave bodily (e.g. Thranduil)?
  • Did any Elves build their own ships (cf. Legolas) after the "Last" Ship?
  • Did any Silvans or Avari choose to go West?
    • Did Avari have the grace to go West?
    • If not, do Silvans count as Eldar or Avari?

Third Age

• Which four of the Seven Rings were consumed by dragonfire? The only one we know for sure survived is the Ring of the Longbeards.
• Who were the Nine Nazgûl?
  • Was the Witch-king truly of Númenórean descent? Tolkien's final word on the subject (which is buried as deeply as anything Tolkien-related could possibly be while still being available to the public) was literally "probably."
  • Was "Khamûl" a nom de guerre that described only the Ringwraith, or did this name derive from his original "mortal" identity?
  • Were all nine of the Men to whom Sauron gave a Ring in the Second Age Nazgûl during the War of the Ring, or was there turnover?

Second Age

• Who slew Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance?

First Age

• Why didn't Orodreth send Finduilas to Círdan for safekeeping at the same time as Gil-galad?
  • Related: what years were Finduilas and Gil-galad born?

My speculation on the subject
• Finduilas was already an adult when Minas Tirith fell to Sauron in F.A. 456 so there was no need to protect her in that way, whereas Gil-galad was a child (somewhere between 20ish and 40ish years old).
• Finduilas may have already been betrothed to (or otherwise romantically involved with) Gwindor at this point, which would give her a motive to remain on Tol Sirion while Dorthonion was being overrun.
• We know that some of Angrod's (and presumably Aegnor's) people also went to the Havens after the fall of Dorthonion in F.A. 455, so Orodreth's family would not be alone among the Noldor of the House of Finarfin in forsaking Nargothrond.
• The family could potentially have reunited after the Sons of Fëanor were expelled from Nargothrond in F.A. 465, but West Beleriand was still dangerous and such a journey may have been considered too risky.
• Maybe Gil-galad and his mother just had no desire to return to Orodreth, or after F.A. 490 recognized that the bridge was a bad call and wanted no part of it. Big oof in that case.

• Who is the elder: Elros or Elrond?

Things I like

• FAQ of the Rings – Mostly great information and some interesting speculation about the Rings of Power.
• The Last Ringbearer – The very best fan fiction ever written, and possibly the only work of fan fiction with genuine literary merit.
• My favorite characters in the Legendarium: Círdan, Celeborn, Elmo. I like the ones who don't get a lot of attention but whose efforts in the background were nonetheless essential.
• Reference templates