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Talk:Haradrim

Revision as of 12:45, 9 October 2021 by Akhorahil (Talk | contribs)

We have separate pages for the Haradrim and Southrons. These should be merged and disambiguated. I'll be moving the current contents of the Haradrim page to the Southrons page, since it's currently the smaller of the two. --Ted C 16:02, 19 October 2006 (EDT)

Hm, I think we definitely need to merge the two but we should probably think about which term is the most common and have the article content located there. I think in this case Haradrim is more common. The Southrons article can then have information about the actual title and why it was assigned to them, how Tolkien derived the word, etc. --Hyarion 16:16, 19 October 2006 (EDT)

That's probably a good place to put it; I just wanted to go ahead and put the article together in one place or the other. We can sort out the location now that that's done. --Ted C 16:26, 19 October 2006 (EDT)

Contents

Edits

I reverted some of the useful edits by Serpent Lord. In other articles, we put the "traits and culture" section at the bottom of the articles, so I returned that section to its place in order to maintain uniformity (which is open to discussion of course). I also removed some of the speculation on the language to keep the text "in-universe". I also removed the references to the names Barangils and Harwan as according to the context, they are certainly not "Haradrian".

Just for the record, I'd like to point out that "Barangil" seems to me like anglicized Gondor Sindarin, analyzed by me as baran = brown and -kil = -ing (cf. Tarkil) therefore a direct translation of "Swerting". Sage 21:49, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Massive revision

There are some problems with the massive revision just made. BartAllen, I welcome you to the wiki and I appreciate your work, but first of all, it would be more polite that you had made the edit step by step or at least you discussed in the talkpage your plan of making such a rewriting. Now, the main problem are the sources: we cannot mix Tolkien's work (which is given in-world) with academic discussions, these should be in other categories. Also, a refered cite should include what has been mentioned: for example, about the origins of the Haradrim, they obviously descended from the Men who awoke in Hildórien, but the cite from The Silmarillion doesn't say such a thing (I know the assertion was already there without a reference, but it still doesn't have anything to support it). In the other hand, I don't understand why you cite secondary sources like David Day or Daphne Castell instead of the original books. Also, this should be more focused solely in the Haradrim, there is so much info and speculation I cannot believe it. Finally, there is no need to repeat the references at the end of every sentence: it is assumed that what has been written till a point can be found at the reference put in the end. Please, check Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style for more details you should know before editing an article. Idk what to do with this. Can somebody revise it? Second and Third Ages are not my specialty. --LorenzoCB 18:01, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Hey, Lorenzo: I cited Daphne Castell's interview Tolkien of in 1966, and for David Day I used in one reference relating to the term 'Swarthy Men'; but for the most part I used Tom Shippey. The only speculation was the possibility of Quenya being spoken by the Gondorians who fled that land for Harad post Kin-strife, and the reference to Tolkien's Lost Chaucer. The origin section is in relation to the events after the Awakening, and the Men during that period who didn't venture to the Light. The information on Beleriand was based on consolidating the information that someone already posted (in hindsight it's immaterial) ~ But in future I shall edit step by step or at least make my intentions known ~ The cite from The Silmarillion (on cite 6) was based on the children of Men spreading (wandering) throughout Endor. Again, apologies for the inconvenience -- Whoops :3 ~ --BartAllen 18:33, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
The possibility that Quenya was spoken by the Gondorians that fled to Harad after the Kin-strife was not "the only" speculation in your edit. Your edit contains many speculations, which are not identified as such by adding "it is possible that" or "possibly" and at least one of your references to a source that was not written by J.R.R. Tolkien is wrong. I do not have the time at the moment to explain all speculations that you made and why they are just speculations and to explain all errors. The blog entry by Bruce G. Charlton that you specified as the source for the statement that there were two descendants of classical Adunaic and that one was Westron and that the other was the language of the Black Numenoreans is not the source for this statement, because it does not contain this statement. By the way this statement is wrong, because this statement is not included anywhere in Part Two - The Notion Club Papers in Sauron Defeated. This statement has been copied and pasted on the internet and its source is an essay that was on lalaith's (i.e. Andreas Möhn's) Middle-earth science blog that was called "The third Realm in Exile" that was later included in the book by lalaith's later pseudonym together with a female author Codex Regius "Middle-earth Seen by the Barbarians". In a section with the title "3441 SA - 1050 TA: The Ancient Realm" of the essay with the title "The third realm in Exile" Andreas Möhn (alias laliath alias Codex Reguis) makes the statements "The Black Númenóreans very likely did not exchange Classical Adûnaic against an Elvish influenced Westron either but retained it as a language of lore that might be called "Black Adûnaic". It may eventually have grown into a Southron equivalent of the Common Speech. In this context, it is noteworthy that Arundel Lowdham cited not one but two Third Age descendants of Classical Adûnaic, giving the names for sun and moon, respectively (NC). If one of them was Westron, the other may very well have been the Adûnaic idiom of Umbar." and indicates "NC" as his source, which stands for "The Notion Club Papers" in Sauron Defeated 1991 in his list of abbreviations of sources. However this statement is also wrong, because Part Two - The Notion Club Papers in Sauron Defeated does not say anywhere that there were two Third Age descendants of Classical Adunaic and the different words for the sun and the moon in two "ghost-languages" in manuscript E of the Earlier versions of Night 66 in Part Two: The Notion Club Papers are not in two third age descendants of Adunaic, but in Quenya and Sindarin or in Sindarin and Adunaic (Sauron Defeated pages 302 to 304 Anar and Anaur (later Anor) for the sun and Isil and Ithil for the moon, page 305 "two ghost-languages: Numenorean A and B" and "echoes of other later tongues that are later than Numenorean A and B, but are derived from them, or from their blending", page 306 Anar in Sindarin and Uri in Adunaic and Isil (oldest form Ithil) in Sindarin and Nilu in Adunaic or in the "later languages" Anor (Anaur) for the sun and Ithil for the moon and Uir, Yr for the sun and Nil, Njul for the moon, page 239 to 241 language A (Avallonian = Sindarin) and language B (Adunaic)). Please do not make any edits based on sources that were not written by J.R.R. Tolkien before checking whether they specify sources that were writting by J.R.R. Tolkien and before reading those sources that were written by J.R.R. Tolkien to be sure that their claims and speculations have a valid basis. In addition, the page on the Haradrim should not be overloaded with information about Harad, Umbar, the Kinf-strife and the Black Numenoreans. --Akhorahil 14:51, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I'll be mindful in the future, but that aspect of the Notion Club Papers was something, ironically, I read on here but shamelessly didn't fact-check via Sauron Defeated, but as stated previously: I shall not make such large submissions in the future ~ As I replied to Sage, I'll place some of the location information on the Harad page at a later date ~ --BartAllen 15:08, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
Checking the facts in the primary sources written by J.R.R. Tolkien is absolutely essential before editing pages and before providing those sources or sources which are derived from those sources as references. --Akhorahil 16:33, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
You're right and I shall not repeat that going forward, Akhorahil :3 --BartAllen 16:46, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
I agree with some points by Lorenzo. I already did some fixes to BartAllen's goodwilled edits. I would like to point out that the narrative must be in-context, that is, how Aragorn healed Faramir has no connection to the fact that the Haradrim used the Black Breath; the etymology of Incanus and its possible Quenya meanings don't have any place in the section about the language of the Haradrim; also the fact that the Corsairs were possibly Haradrim doesn't mean that we must repeat their details here. These facts are already mentioned in their respective, more appropriate, articles. Also, I see that BartAllen mainly tailored up some existing phrases form the books or other articles, which result in some awkward and repetitive text; for example the paragraph about the Blue Wizards (now fixed by me, I hope) repeated 3 times that they operated in East and South obviously because this fact was repeated in the multiple sources used by BartAllen, failing to merge it in one phrase. Editing an article doesn't only meaning finding sources, but also make it a flowing, readable narrative.
In those respects I wonder if BartAllen is connected to former users Kulid123, WhiteWizard and Tengwar, as the editing style is similar, with useful insights and elaborate work. Sage 10:27, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
Sage, thanks for your revisions as they were great; and once more apologies for the inconvenience as I shall try and adhere to what both Lorenzo and yourself have said ~ Relating to Incanus' etymology should that be placed in the 'etymology' section or simply left out completely? But I shall try not to repeat as much, and perhaps even remove sections of the Ages and instead place them within the 'Harad' page ~ But I'm not connected to those users lol ~ --BartAllen 13:04, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
Please do not make any other edits to the Harad, Umbar, Black Numenoreans or other related pages before experienced editors have cleaned up your edits of the Haradrim page and removed all errors or information that is better included in other pages. --Akhorahil 16:33, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
For example the word Incanus, its etymology and revisions by Tolkien are already covered in Gandalf/Names. Thanks too for responding to our criticism. Sage 15:12, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
I would partially disagree with the above statements that we shouldn't include third authors's opinions. This is what we have been doing, as part of studying and enjoying Tolkien is not only reading his stories but also their "academic" interest in their interpretations, origins etc. We wouldn't have many "Inspiration" or "Etymology" sections if we didn't accept external bibliography. The main reason Lorenzo and Akhorahil objected was because David Day and Andreas Moehn are frowned upon. As such I think Tom Shippey's interpretation that the Haradrim as based on the medieval notions of the Ethopians/Sigelwaras should stay. Sage 16:11, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I see, I see -- I didn't realise both were frowned upon. Thanks a lot, Sage, and I shall revert that ~ --BartAllen 16:13, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Should Angamaitë, Sangahyando, Fuinur, Herumor, Berúthiel, Captain of the Haven, Corsairs of Umbar, and the Black Serpent be counted as Men of Harad?

I placed an addition pertaining to Berúthiel being classed as a Haradrim, due to her - according to Tolkien, mind you - being from inland city that was located further to the south than Umbar -- presumably one of the Numenorean colonies in southern Haradwaith. My question is due to Berúthiel being a Black Numenorean surely doesn't restrict her being classed as a Haradrim, as the latter isn't a race and you've had Numenoreans of Gondor, Arnor and even Umbar, for instance. In the index of the Silmarillion it is stated that Haradrim are "The Men of Harad (the South), the lands south of Mordor." There was no mention of race, skin colour, ethnicity, moral compass etc. Presumably this is one of the reasons the Druedain of Armenelos aren't known as Haradrim, whilst being counted among the Edain, at least in text. Sangahyando being of Elros' bloodline (Numenorean) and of the house of Anarion (Gondorian), is a Man of Harad (presumably); contrast that with Khamul being an Easterling as well as a Nazgul; the Corsairs and the Captain of the Haven, due to the intermixing with the indigenous populations? Herumor and his brother also became lords in Haradwaith (amongst the Haradrim). Also, apparently a chieftain of the Haradrim (aka the Black Serpent) isn't a Haradrim? --BartAllen 14:21, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

It is your task before you decide to edit an existing page to read sources that were written by J.R.R. Tolkien or are based on what he said and to distinguish fact from your own personal speculation. You created a lot of work for other more experienced editors by making a massive edit full of your own speculations first and asking questions later, which you should have answered yourself before the edit. There should be as little speculation as possible. Speculation should be clearly disclosed by phrases such "it is possible" or "possibly" and the facts and sources that the speculation is based on should be clearly disclosed. --Akhorahil 10:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
Faramir, the son of steward Denethor, and thus probably an educated man, said when talking about the Númenoreans in Gondor that the stewards "made a truce with the proud peoples of the North" and that those were "our kin from afar off, unlike the wild Easterlings or the cruel Haradrim"[1] So he referred to the Haradrim as being of a different race as the Númenoreans (and thus as the Black Númenoreans or as the faithful Númenoreans of Gondor). J.R.R. Tolkien himself writes in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in the silmarillion "the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin".[2] As a consequence, J.R.R. Tolkien uses the term Haradrim to refer to a "people" (i.e. a race). --Akhorahil 10:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
The index of the Silmarillion is not a source that was written by J.R.R. Tolkien. Christopher Tolkien, the editor of The Silmarillion wrote in the foreword of The Silmarillion that he (and not J.R.R. Tolkien) wrote the index of The Silmarillion[3] Men of Harad is a synonm for Haradrim. J.R.R. Tolkien wrote in an early version of what would later become Appendix A of the Lord of the Rings in a changed form "The rebels of Umbar had never ceased to make war on Gondor since the death of Kastamir, attacking its ships and raiding itscoast at every opportunity. They had however become much mixed in blood through admission of Men of Harad, and only their chieftains, descendants of Kastamir, were of Numenorean race". So J.R.R. Tolkien uses "Men of Harad" as a race that is different from the Numenorean race.[4] J.R.R. Tolkien wrote "The sons of Kastamir and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar, and there made a fortified haven. They never ceased to make war upon Gondor, attacking its ships and coasts when they had opportunity. But they married women of the Harad and had in three generations lost most of their Numenorean blood; but they did not forget their feud with the house of Eldakar."[5] So J.R.R. Tolkien also uses the term "women of the Harad" as being of a different race than the Númenoreans. J.R.R. Tolkien also uses the term "men of Harad" when Faramir reports about the attack on the Haradrim in Ithilien and when mentioning that the location of the ambush by the Orcs and Easterlings was in the same place where he had ambushed the Haradrim.[6][7] --Akhorahil 12:40, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Angamaitë and Sangahyando:
"Descendants of Castamir's children who mated with the women of Harad."

J.R.R. Tolkien only mentioned that the descendants of Castamir married women of the Harad or lost much of their Númenorean blood in draft versions of what would later become appendix A of The Lord of the Rings and that were different from the final version of Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, which does not mention anything about the descendants of Castamir marrying women of the Harad or losing their Númenorean blood. J.R.R. Tolkien wrote in letter 347 to Richard Jeffery that "there was no need to assert their royal descent, as that was clear" [8]. The claim of Castamir was based on being of more "pure" Númenorean blood than Eldacar and it is illogical and unlikely that his descendants would habe weakened their claim and the support by their followers by marrying women of another ethnic group. Besides they fled from the large city of Pelargir and had ships and Eldacar did not have ships to pursue them so they could take women and children from Pelargir or later pick them up at the coasts and there were likely enough Black Númenorean or Gondorian women in Umbar to marry because it had been held by the Black Númenoreans and later by the Gondorians for a long time.[9] --Akhorahil 10:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Fuinur and Herumor:
"Stated above."

Herumor and Fuinur were "of the high race of Númenor", "who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin".[2] J.R.R. Tolkien does distinguish the Nùmenoreans Herumor and Fuinor from the Haradrim among whom they rose to power. Christopher Tolkien, the editor of The Silmarillion wrote in the foreword of The Silmarillion that he (and not J.R.R. Tolkien) wrote the index of The Silmarillion[3] and even he wrote that Herumor and Fuinor were "renegade Númenorean who became mighty among the Haradrim at the end of the Second Age".[10] --Akhorahil 10:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Berúthiel:
"Being from south of Umbar."

J.R.R. Tolkien said in an interview by Daphne Castell that was published in the November 1966 issue of New Worlds that she (Berúthiel) "was a Black Númenorean in origin, I guess".[11] J.R.R. Tolkien never wrote or said that she was a member of "the Haradrim". That Berúthiel was originally from an inland city to the south of Umbar is a speculation and I disclosed it as merely a speculation in the Berúthiel page and I disclosed on what facts this speculation is based on that page. So, no, Berúthiel can not and especially can not "surely" be classified as a member of the Haradrim. --Akhorahil 10:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Captain of the Haven and Corsairs of Umbar:
"Intermixing until Numenorean blood was spent. Tolkien stated that they had "become much mixed in blood through admission of Men of Harad, and only their chieftains, descendants of Kastamir, were of Numenorean race."

J.R.R. Tolkien never wrote to which ethnic group the "Captain of the Haven" (of Umbar) belonged.[12] It is pure speculation that he was a member of the Haradrim. He may also have been of Black Númenorean or of Gondorian (faithful Númenorean descent or even an immigrant from a far away land, such as Khand. As far as the Corsairs of Umbar are concerned, refer to what I wrote about only draft versions of what would later become Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings. --Akhorahil 10:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Black Serpent:
"A chieftain of the Haradrim."

The Black Serpent is not a person. It is only the emblem on a standard of a chieftain of the horsemen of the Haradrim, which was carried by a standard bearer.[13] Since it is not a person, but an emblem on a standard, an emblem on a standard can not be a "member" of the Haradrim in an infobox. The index that is published in The Lord of the Rings was not written by J.R.R. Tolkien. In the introduction of the index in the anniversary edition of The Lord of the Rings it is stated that it was compiled by Christina Scull & Wayne G. Hammond and has been compiled independent of that prepared by Nancy Smith and revised by J.R.R. Tolkien for the second edition (1965) of The Lord of the Rings. J.R.R. Tolkien himself began to prepare an index during 1954, but which he left unfinished after dealing only with place-names. The entry for Harardrim in the index which mentions "the black serpent" in brackets after "chieftain" is not supported by the text of The Lord of the Rings.[14] --Akhorahil 10:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Should the list of individuals (and one group) be counted amongst the Men of Harad? --BartAllen 17:43, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

No. --Akhorahil 10:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Bart Allen's reply:
As I stated (yet again) it was part of my original edit and I've attempted to trim and remove down much of my original post (as such with the Third Age etc). Naturally, Haradrim are different to the race of Númenoreans, as Numenoreans are not just those born on Numenor (as that would include the later Druedain) but those of the blood of Elros or linked to the three houses with extended life -- but my query is whether one can be a Man of Harad by being born or living on the land almost as a citizen (even changing one's allegiance). As Tolkien (Christopher) constituted a Man of Harad as one living in the lands south of Mordor, as it's not a singular race or ethnicity, nor even an allegiance to Sauron (as there were those who fled to the forests, or joined the Blue Wizards' campaign).

Not sure if it's ever been stated that one becomes a Haradrim via a membership process, of sorts ~

1. Is Umbar in western Haradwaith?
2. Are the Men of Harad a race, ethnicity or the inhabitants of Haradwaith?
3. Can a race be beholden to a land? Are the Druedain of Armenelos of Harad or Numenor, despite having an over 3,000 history within the latter.

On a different note, are Númenoreans of Gondor comparable to those of Castamir's kin post-Kinstrife? Or is Aragorn not a Gondorian due to his region of birth, similar to Isildur?

Do your reading before you edit to answer your questions. --Akhorahil 12:40, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

I included the Black Serpent as it was stated that the article could be about the banner as well as the chieftain, but I see --BartAllen 14:21, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers, "The Window on the West"
  2. 2.0 2.1 J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"
  3. 3.0 3.1 J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Silmarillion, "Foreword", sixth paragraph
  4. J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Peoples of Middle-earth, "VII. The Heirs of Elendil", manuscript C, The Southern line of Gondor: the Anarioni, 25. Minardil
  5. J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Peoples of Middle-earth, "VII. The Heirs of Elendil", Commentary on manuscript B on the entry for king Minardil
  6. J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, "The Siege of Gondor"
  7. J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, "The Black Gate Opens", seventeenth paragraph
  8. J.R.R. Tolkien; Humphrey Carpenter, Christopher Tolkien (eds.), The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 347, (dated 17 December 1972)
  9. J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, "The Númenorean Kings", "Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion", entry for king Eldacar and entry for king Eärnil I and the footnote relating to the Black Númenoreans in Umbar there
  10. J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Silmarillion, "Index of Names", entries Fuinur and Herumor
  11. Daphne Castell, "The Realms of Tolkien", The Realms of Tolkien (accessed 15 January 2021).
  12. J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, "The Númenorean Kings", "Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion", "The Stewards", entry for steward Ecthelion II, second paragraph
  13. J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields", second and third paragraph
  14. J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, "Index", III. Persons, Places, and Things, entry Haradrim ... chieftain (the black serpent)