Talk:Argon: Difference between revisions

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Latest comment: 4 April 2021 by Mord in topic The existence of this character
(Cleared it up thanks!)
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::::Okay now I follow. I think I was confused. The article states that these were Orcs that had been sent to attack Feanor from the rear from the Second Battle. You are correct: I don't see any mention of Orcs being sent to attack the rear of Feanor's host so I think there was a mistake in the article. In that case, these are two separate battles. Therefore, these are completely disconnected battles. I will make edits to the "Battle of the Lammoth" page to clear it up.--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] 16:56, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
::::Okay now I follow. I think I was confused. The article states that these were Orcs that had been sent to attack Feanor from the rear from the Second Battle. You are correct: I don't see any mention of Orcs being sent to attack the rear of Feanor's host so I think there was a mistake in the article. In that case, these are two separate battles. Therefore, these are completely disconnected battles. I will make edits to the "Battle of the Lammoth" page to clear it up.--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] 16:56, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
It seems like this particular issue is already settled, but there are certainly other similar cases within the Legendarium where some posthumously published material expands on other such material without directly contradicting it. As I see it, there's nothing about Argon's existence ''per se'' that directly contradicts the published Silmarillion, rather, the implications of his biography pose what I would consider an "indirect" contradiction. (I would consider a "direct" contradiction to be something like the parentage of Gil-galad in the Silmarillion being utterly overturned by HOME.)
Wiki policy [[TG:CANON]] is clear that it is not for editors to attempt to synthesize or harmonize variances within the Legendarium, only to document them. I think that in a case like this, rather than pruning all references (in family trees etc.) to the ambiguously canonical character or concept, it would be better to simply add a note indicating the ambiguity. --[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 18:22, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 18:22, 4 April 2021

The existence of this character[edit source]

I have a bone to pick with this character. According to this wiki, the character Argon does not appear in the published Silmarillion at all, because he only came to light in very late writings by Tolkien. In that version, he is said to have died in the Battle of the Lammoth. Now the issue with this is that becaue the Battle of the Lammoth was introduced very late into his works, it does not coincide with the timing of event at all. In fact, in the published Silmarillion, Fingolfin's host only arrives after the Dagor-nuin-Giliath is long over. Thus, according to the most sources, it makes absolutely no sense for this battle to have occured for it actually would have occured 30+ years after Feanor arrived in Middle-earth. Therefore, according to this wiki, it renders the character Argon useless in all the articles and family trees he is mentioned in. Now there are two ways we can go about fixing this error:

1. We assume Argon exists. Therefore, the Dagor-nuin-Giliath occurs far after (30+ years after) what is mentioned in the Silmarillion and the Grey Annals (both sources of which we have decided on the dating for the ENTIRE wiki) with the Battle of the Lammoth occurring almost immediately the Dagor-nuin-Giliath to account for this. This would require immense changes to the wiki and the timing of the Wars of Beleriand.

2. We assume Argon does not exist as a published/official work and we assume (what is currently written on pages) that he is a later addition. Thus, he should belong in notes and OVOTLs and removed from family trees and houses if we are to keep him relevant to this wiki.

I said what I said. Any thoughts on this?--Tolkienator 16:40, 1 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Good observation, but you are assuming that the Battle of the Lammoth happened at the same time as the Dagor-nuin-Giliath. I guess it is because the error in the Battles of Beleriand article, in which it is said that "during this battle the Battle of the Lammoth was fought", which contradicts the dates in the wiki (as you rightly pointed out) based on nothing, as the only mentions of the Battle only say it happened when the host arrived (hence the correct assumption that it happened in F.A. 1, as we have in the wiki). I'll correct the info in that article. --LorenzoCB 09:58, 2 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The problem with this is that according to The Peoples of Middle-earth, the Dagor-nuin-Giliath occurs much later (right before F.A. 1) and the Battle of the Lammoth occurs immediately after the battle because Fingolfin's host arrives immediately after the Dagor-nuin-Giliath is over. Thus, the host of Fingolfin arrives a few days after the host of Feanor. In this case, Argon exists. However, according to all other sources including The Silmarillion, the Dagor-nuin-Giliath occurs in Y.T. 1497 and the host of Fingolfin arrives in Middle-earth in F.A. 1 (over 30 years after) with no mention of a Battle of the Lammoth and Argon as they "passed unopposed" to Angband. We cannot reconcile these two different accounts because they are decades apart from each other and so, Argon should not exist in the timeline to which the wiki follows.--Tolkienator 15:44, 2 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't see any mention of the Dagor-nuin-Giliath in The Peoples of Middle-earth; and I repeat: the only mentions of the Battle of the Lammoth only say it happened when the host arrived to Middle-earth, not during any other battle or immediately after the Dagor-nuin-Giliath. Am I right? Obviously Morgoth wanted to give Fingolfin a proper welcome, there is no need that the attack in Lammoth was because there was already a battle. --LorenzoCB 16:05, 2 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay now I follow. I think I was confused. The article states that these were Orcs that had been sent to attack Feanor from the rear from the Second Battle. You are correct: I don't see any mention of Orcs being sent to attack the rear of Feanor's host so I think there was a mistake in the article. In that case, these are two separate battles. Therefore, these are completely disconnected battles. I will make edits to the "Battle of the Lammoth" page to clear it up.--Tolkienator 16:56, 2 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It seems like this particular issue is already settled, but there are certainly other similar cases within the Legendarium where some posthumously published material expands on other such material without directly contradicting it. As I see it, there's nothing about Argon's existence per se that directly contradicts the published Silmarillion, rather, the implications of his biography pose what I would consider an "indirect" contradiction. (I would consider a "direct" contradiction to be something like the parentage of Gil-galad in the Silmarillion being utterly overturned by HOME.)

Wiki policy TG:CANON is clear that it is not for editors to attempt to synthesize or harmonize variances within the Legendarium, only to document them. I think that in a case like this, rather than pruning all references (in family trees etc.) to the ambiguously canonical character or concept, it would be better to simply add a note indicating the ambiguity. --Mord 18:22, 4 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]