Talk:Pre-Númenóreans

Is this term found somewhere in canon material, or is it a construction strictly for this article? I'm not familiar with it. Corsair Caruso 21:49, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

It's been used by Tolkien in a manuscript concerning the legendarium (VT:42), so it's "canon". For page references, see here.--Morgan 22:54, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

On a second thought, one might argue that Tolkien only uses the term for the language (pre-Númenórean). Until we have other evidence, it might be good to place the template "Unnamed" on the article (I'll do it now).--Morgan 22:59, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

The use of this term

Tolkien's use of this term is strictly reserved for the languages (specifically certain place-names) and various groups of different Men from a time period before the Númenóreans set sail and landed on Middle-earth. Thus, this term is much too vague to refer to a group of Men of common origin as this page implies (specifically Men akin to the Haladin) or one single language family akin to the Haladin. Tolkien has nowhere explicitly stated that the Pre-Númenóreans are a people akin to the Haladin but he has stated that the Men akin to the Haladin who stayed behind are a Pre-Númenórean people. "Pre-Númenórean" is used as an adjective, not as a proper noun. Here's some context: "the river was the southern boundary of Eregion, beyond which pre-Numenorean and generally unfriendly peoples lived, such as the ancestors of the Dunlendings." (History of Galadriel and Celeborn). Tolkien never intended for this term to be used as an ethnic group as a whole but a collection of various groups of diverse origin existing before the Numenoreans set sail.--Tolkienator 02:02, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with your analysis of the use of the term pre-Númenórean in the works of J.R.R. Tolkien. I have also thought that the term for the peoples that were akin to the Haladin should be changed, but I have not come up with a better term that satisfied me and have postponed changing it. --Akhorahil 05:53, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

J.R.R. Tolkien did not use the term pre-Númenóreans and did not use the adjective pre-Númenórean in The Lord of the Rings. There he only used "Yet the names of nearly all places and persons in the realm of Gondor were of Elvish form and meaning. A few were of forgotten origin, and descended doubtless from the days before the ships of the Númenóreans sailed the Sea; among these were Umbar, Arnach and Erech; and the mountain-names Eilenach and Rimmon. Forlong was also a name of the same sort." in the sixth pargraph of Appendix F "I The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age Of Men". J.R.R. Tolkien used the the adjective pre-Númenórean in the section "Amroth and Nimrodel" in the chapter "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in the book Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth in an excerpt from his essay "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor" that was published in the linguistic journal Vinyar Tengwar and in the book The Nature of Middle-earth ("It is said here that while the element Bel is certainly derived from a pre-Númenórean name, its source was in fact Sindarin.") and in footnote 51 of the section "(iv) The tradition of Isildur" of the chapter "Cirion and Eorl and the friendship of Gondor and Rohan" in the book Unfinished Tales of Númenór and Middle-earth ("Eilenaer was a name of pre-Númenórean origin, evidently related to Eilenach."). Christopher Tolkien used the adjective pre-Númenórean in connection with names or the origin of names in his entries for Adorn, Eilenaer, Erelas and Lossarnach, of the Index that he made for the book Unfinished Tales of Númenór and Middle-earth. J.R.R. Tolkien used the adjective pre-Númenórean in connection with names or the origin of names in his essay The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor in the entries for Adorn ("pre-Númenórean origin", Belfalas ("pre-Númenórean name", "in some pre-Númenórean language") and Eilenach ("names of this group that are certainly pre-Númenórean"). As a consequence neither J.R.R. Tolkien nor Christopher Tolkien used the term pre-Númenórean for a specific group of people, but rather as an adjective in connection with names or the origin of names. So the adjective pre-Númenórean simply refers to something existing before the arrival of the Númenóreans in Middle-earth. I will analyse which terms Tolkien scholars have used in which terms have been used in journals. I think I remember proto-Dunlendings and proto-Gwathuirim. I think that the article should be moved after we have decided on a name that fits the ancestors of the Dunlendings and of the Men of Bree better and that has been used by Tolkien scholars or in journals. --Akhorahil 10:42, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Akhorahil! I pretty much agree with removing this term from the wiki. I never liked it, so ambiguous! Hope we can find the proper terms for these peoples. --LorenzoCB 11:22, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I intend to correct the information in the Pre-Númenóreans, Dunlendings and Dunland pages and add references first, then to suggest a better name for the Pre-Númenóreans page and to move it after a consensus on the new name for this page has been reached. --Akhorahil 12:15, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I trust you, Akhorahil, to make the massive revision of this page! If I may suggest, I believe that a lot of this information could be moved to their respective "Origins" section for the pages for the "Haladin/House of Haleth", "Dunlendings", "Men of Bree", "Oathbreakers", etc. This page has no value on its own as it is an adjective used by Tolkien rather than a noun. Another suggestion could be to include two subheadings focused on "pre-Numenorean" peoples and languages/words respectively with redirects to specific pages. An infobox is redundant here.--Tolkienator (talk) 19:35, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

New Name Suggestions?

I have a few suggestions for how the name issue could be solved. One way is maybe moving this page to a new page that refers to these people as Pre-Númenórean Speakers since the actual term “Pre-Númenórean” is used for the languages. Another suggestion that I propose is moving this page to the Middle Men page since that term has been used by Tolkien. It might an adjective, but at least it is used in relation to these people so we may be able to use that term for the time being if it is the best option available. Also, it is worth mentioning that the pre-Númenórean term for the languages is used in relation to western Middle-earth. This does not include the Men of Darkness or the Númenóreans. Regarding my suggestions, I do not mind either, but would prefer Middle Men as that page already exists so this one would just need to be merged with it. Dour1234, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I made an internet search, which terms are used in essays about the topic. Michael Martinez uses the term Proto-Gwathuirim and Proto-Haladin for a sub-group of the Proto-Gwathuirim https://middle-earth.xenite.org/why-did-the-rohirrim-drive-the-dunlendings-out-of-their-lands/ Andreas Möhn uses the term Proto-Dunlendings in his article The Indigenous Population of Arnor and Gondor in Other Hands issue 15/16. Chris Seeman uses Proto-Dunlendings in his article Oathbreakers and Dunlendings in Other Hands issue 24. The term pre-Dunlendings is used in the Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) module Havens of Gondor. In historical linguistics the prefix proto seems to refer to the oldest language with the distinctive features of a language group while the prefix pre seems to be used for the immediate ancestor of this oldest language. Many users are probably not familiar with the term Gwathuirim since it is only used once by J.R.R. Tolkien in The Peoples of Middle-earth and thus only in late drafts. I tend towards Pre-Dunlendings, because the term Dunlendings is perhaps the based known name for members of this group from The Lord of the Rings and from Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth and pre because the page is not about the earliest proper Dunlendings, but the ancestors of the group of peoples that then splits into the Haladin, the Men of the Mountains, the Men of Bree and the Dunlendings (Gwathuirim). --Akhôrahil (talk) 15:40, 25 February 2024 (UTC)