Talk:Oathbreakers
From Tolkien Gateway
Latest comment: 6 January 2023 by Dour1234
Now, here's a definite case of ambiguity. If you look at what links here we get this:
| The Dead | 3 |
| Oathbreakers | 6 |
| Army of the Dead | 8 |
| Dead Men | 8 |
| Dead Men of Dunharrow | 9 |
I don't really know, however, which of these is the best option, though. I think Army of the Dead is the most common, but I'm not really sure. Is this article best left where it is or should it be moved; if so, where to? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
- I personallly think we should keep it at Oathbreakers, I think it's most used (if excluding the Army of the Dead). Army of the Dead is (almost) only used in adaptations. --Amroth 18:23, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Ederchil. — Mithrennaith 06:24, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
- I would favour "Dead Men" myself (and not "Dead men") as it's more tidy, I think " of Dunharrow" is unnecessary (and we can put the full description in the opening paragraph), and because Dead Men is more common in TLOTR than Dead Men of Dunharrow. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 16:02, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
- I have to say, I thought "Army of the Dead" would work best in terms of SEO. Nonetheless the logic behind "Dead Men" makes a lot of sense. -- KingAragorn talk contribs edits email 21:30, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
- +1 to "Dead Men".--Morgan 13:22, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- I made a search in an e-book version of the different names that are used in The Lord of the Rings for them. The term "oathbreakers" is used once in the phrophecy of Malbeth the Seer ("for the hour has come for the oathbreakers:" and does not even seem to be used as a proper name. Aragorn once asks "Oathbreakers, why have ye come?" at the Stone of Erech. Again, it does not seem to be used as a proper name, but he just addresses them so before indicating how they can fulfill their oath, because they had broken an oath and it may simply be spelled with an upper case "O", because it is used at the beginning of a sentence. Théoden says that the folk of Rohan refers to them as "Dead Men" in The Muster of Rohan (Folk say that "Dead Men" out the Dark Years"). Gimli refers to them as Dead Men when he tells the story in The Last Debate ("And Aragorn spoke in a loud voice to the Dead Men, crying:". Finally Appendix F Of Men refers to them as a people as the "Dead Men of Dunharrow" ("The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin". All other names that are used in the Other names section just seem to be variations for them as an army when they follow Aragorn. In my opinion, Army of the Dead can be a redirect page so that people can enter it to find the page. Oathbreakers is a bad choice, because it is not used often in The Lord of the Rings and does not seem to be used as the proper name of them there. I am in favour of moving the page to a page called "Dead Men", because they do not just appear in Dunharrow, but they also appeared in the south near the Stone of Erech and also haunted that area afterwards, but I am also OK with Dead Men of Dunharrow as a second choice. --Akhorahil (talk) 10:12, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that the page should be moved, but disagree that it should be moved to "Dead Men" or "Dead Men of Dunharrow". To start with, the term Dead Men is also used metaphorically at some points by the Druedain to make a point. I believe that the page should be moved to "Men of the Mountains" as that is they are referred to as such before and occasionally after the curse. They were only referred to as the Dead Men after the curse. I also agree with making an "Army of the Dead" redirect page directly to the adaptations section, as that term is only used in the film adaptations. Speaking of adaptations, it is likely possible that the Men of the Mountains will appear on Amazon’s show. In that case, we should not spoil that the "Men of the Mountains" become the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Even though the show will likely have their own name for them, we should not be ignorant of casual fans who would look find this page, only to be spoiled on their fate. As such, I also believe that the "King of the Dead" page should be moved to a "King of the Mountains" page, which is An actual term in TLOTR. Also, categorizing them as an organization is misleading and perhaps borders on speculation territory. Dour1234 (talk) 17:25, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- Your claim that the term "Dead Men" is used metaphorically at some points by the Drúedain is incorrect. Did you look it up in The Lord of the Rings immediately before you made this claim or do you make claims based on what you perceive as your memory of what you have read at some point in the past without actually looking it up again before you propose an edit or are against an edit? In the chapter The Ride of the Rohirrim King Théoden offers rich reward and the friendship of the Mark for aid by the Drúedain and Ghân-buri-Ghan answers "Dead men are not friends to living men, and give them not gifts," and then continues "But if you live after the darkness". Ghân-buri-Ghan does not use the proper name "Dead Men" for the "Dead Men of Dunharrow" he uses the normal words dead men and Dead is only writting with a capital D because it is at the beginning of the sentence and men is not written with a capital "m". He knows that the Rohirrim are riding to a battle and are asking for help to reach that battle, so he refers to the Rohirrim and not to the Dead Men of Dunharrow, because he refers to the possibility that the Rohirrim may be dead after the battle. It is not the purpose of Tolkien Gateway to omit information, because it could spoil surprises of what could appear on the TV show The Rings of Power. If one who watches the show looks up information on Tolkien Gateway it is his or her own choice to risk gaining information that could "spoil" a surprise what is going to happen. Recognisability is an imporant criterion for the naming of pages. They are more widely known under the term Dead Men of Dunharrow or Dead Men, because that is what they were at the time of the War of the Ring and those are also terms used on other web encyclopedias. --Akhorahil (talk) 13:01, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- I made an analysis of the frequency of various names for the Dead Men in TLOTR: the Dead (referring to those of Dunharrow, the Paths of the Dead and of Erech (12 times, once in The White Rider, seven times in The Passing of the Grey Company, twice in The Muster of Rohan, twice in The Last Debate), Dead Men (twice, once in The Muster of Rohan and once in The Last Debate), Dead Men of Dunharrow (used once in Appendix F I Of Men). Sleepless Dead (once in The Passing of the Grey Company), The term "oathbreakers" is used once in the phrophecy of Malbeth the Seer without capitalization as a proper name ("for the hour has come for the oathbreakers:" and does not even seem to be used as a proper name. Aragorn once asks "Oathbreakers, why have ye come?" at the Stone of Erech. Again, it does not seem to be used as a proper name, but he just addresses them so before indicating how they can fulfill their oath, because they had broken an oath and it may simply be spelled with an upper case "O", because it is used at the beginning of a sentence. The Dead as a proper name with a capital D is also used as a part of three other proper names, which are linked to them: Paths of the Dead (26 times, 12 times in The Passing of the Grey Company, 7 times in The Muster of Rohan, once in The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, once in The Houses of Healing, 3 times in The Last Debate, once in Appendix A and once in Appendix B), King of the Dead (5 times, 3 times in The Passing of the Grey Company and twice in The Last Debate) and Door of the Dead (once in The Passing of the Grey Company). Shadow Host (4 times, once in The Passing of the Grey Company and 3 times in The Last Debate), Grey Host (2 times, once capitalized and once as grey host in The Last Debate). --Akhorahil (talk) 16:04, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- Your claim that the term "Dead Men" is used metaphorically at some points by the Drúedain is incorrect. Did you look it up in The Lord of the Rings immediately before you made this claim or do you make claims based on what you perceive as your memory of what you have read at some point in the past without actually looking it up again before you propose an edit or are against an edit? In the chapter The Ride of the Rohirrim King Théoden offers rich reward and the friendship of the Mark for aid by the Drúedain and Ghân-buri-Ghan answers "Dead men are not friends to living men, and give them not gifts," and then continues "But if you live after the darkness". Ghân-buri-Ghan does not use the proper name "Dead Men" for the "Dead Men of Dunharrow" he uses the normal words dead men and Dead is only writting with a capital D because it is at the beginning of the sentence and men is not written with a capital "m". He knows that the Rohirrim are riding to a battle and are asking for help to reach that battle, so he refers to the Rohirrim and not to the Dead Men of Dunharrow, because he refers to the possibility that the Rohirrim may be dead after the battle. It is not the purpose of Tolkien Gateway to omit information, because it could spoil surprises of what could appear on the TV show The Rings of Power. If one who watches the show looks up information on Tolkien Gateway it is his or her own choice to risk gaining information that could "spoil" a surprise what is going to happen. Recognisability is an imporant criterion for the naming of pages. They are more widely known under the term Dead Men of Dunharrow or Dead Men, because that is what they were at the time of the War of the Ring and those are also terms used on other web encyclopedias. --Akhorahil (talk) 13:01, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that the page should be moved, but disagree that it should be moved to "Dead Men" or "Dead Men of Dunharrow". To start with, the term Dead Men is also used metaphorically at some points by the Druedain to make a point. I believe that the page should be moved to "Men of the Mountains" as that is they are referred to as such before and occasionally after the curse. They were only referred to as the Dead Men after the curse. I also agree with making an "Army of the Dead" redirect page directly to the adaptations section, as that term is only used in the film adaptations. Speaking of adaptations, it is likely possible that the Men of the Mountains will appear on Amazon’s show. In that case, we should not spoil that the "Men of the Mountains" become the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Even though the show will likely have their own name for them, we should not be ignorant of casual fans who would look find this page, only to be spoiled on their fate. As such, I also believe that the "King of the Dead" page should be moved to a "King of the Mountains" page, which is An actual term in TLOTR. Also, categorizing them as an organization is misleading and perhaps borders on speculation territory. Dour1234 (talk) 17:25, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- I made a search in an e-book version of the different names that are used in The Lord of the Rings for them. The term "oathbreakers" is used once in the phrophecy of Malbeth the Seer ("for the hour has come for the oathbreakers:" and does not even seem to be used as a proper name. Aragorn once asks "Oathbreakers, why have ye come?" at the Stone of Erech. Again, it does not seem to be used as a proper name, but he just addresses them so before indicating how they can fulfill their oath, because they had broken an oath and it may simply be spelled with an upper case "O", because it is used at the beginning of a sentence. Théoden says that the folk of Rohan refers to them as "Dead Men" in The Muster of Rohan (Folk say that "Dead Men" out the Dark Years"). Gimli refers to them as Dead Men when he tells the story in The Last Debate ("And Aragorn spoke in a loud voice to the Dead Men, crying:". Finally Appendix F Of Men refers to them as a people as the "Dead Men of Dunharrow" ("The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin". All other names that are used in the Other names section just seem to be variations for them as an army when they follow Aragorn. In my opinion, Army of the Dead can be a redirect page so that people can enter it to find the page. Oathbreakers is a bad choice, because it is not used often in The Lord of the Rings and does not seem to be used as the proper name of them there. I am in favour of moving the page to a page called "Dead Men", because they do not just appear in Dunharrow, but they also appeared in the south near the Stone of Erech and also haunted that area afterwards, but I am also OK with Dead Men of Dunharrow as a second choice. --Akhorahil (talk) 10:12, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- I do think that the page should be moved to "Dead Men" or "Dead Men of Dunharrow" since the name "Oathbreakers" is not even a proper name.Dour1234 (talk) 19:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
