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Talk:Luck

Revision as of 20:59, 11 September 2021 by SingingOrc (Talk | contribs)
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[edit] Concerning whether the quote works

I think it does, since Gandalf is referring to luck in saying, "You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit?" I don not know how he would be referring to the Ring, except in the context of the films.-SingingOrc

In the original context he is not referring to the Ring at all, but the working of Providence. The Ring was not in focus in that part of the story. Btw, sign your name by adding four tildes ('~') at the end of your post so it gets your user signature and timestamp. Turiannerevarine 22:48, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I would agree with that. I was just confused as to why the user who writes under Oromë seemed to be saying otherwise. Gandalf is more specifically referring to how "luck" does not work to Bilbo's sole benefit, in spite of the fact that it seemed to be, as it can be seen even more clearly in The Lord of the Rings what the consequences might have been were it not for Bilbo's luck. It is an important theme in The Hobbit, which is why I thought it needed a page. Thank you for making me aware about signing my name. SingingOrc 00:48, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Gandalf is actually saying that it wasn't mere luck that helped him, but rather that his adventures and escapes were a part of a bigger purpose (as Turiannerevarine refers to as providence) the led to the fulfillment of the prophecies. This is why I said it may not be the best quote to represent Bilbo's luck, because Gandalf is saying that the outcome wasn't actually due to luck. Also, the reason I added the cleanup tag was more because of the grammar and formatting of the article. --Oromë 01:23, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
I suppose. I think that is what Tolkien had in mind all along which is a concept he referred to as "luck".SingingOrc 03:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
I think this page is necessary because whatever "luck" is, it is an important theme in The Hobbit. Now you could argue that it is not luck at all, but that is how the narrator refers to it and we are supposed to be objective here in our descriptions of concepts in Tolkien lore. That is my view anyway.SingingOrc 14:07, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
It is never called Providence anywhere in either the Hobbit or LOTR, but the concept of Eru working through indirect means to accomplish things is present in all of Tolkien's work. This is a recurring motif or theme. I am not sure if other recurring themes (like the Long Defeat) have their own article, but I don't see why they can't. "Luck" is a good enough title for it anyway.Turiannerevarine 17:55, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with that—Eru, perhaps the also the Valar or through them. I think the concept of luck is important considering how often it is referred to, especially in The Hobbit. The Long Defeat is not referred to anywhere near as frequently (although I do not see why it should not have an article either). SingingOrc 20:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
More to the point, I think the quote from Gandalf directly concerns the concept to which this article is devoted.

[edit] Deletion

I propose deleting this article. The topic is irrelevant and its content is more about Providence. Tolkien did not believed in luck or coincidences. --LorenzoCB 10:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Considering the fact that the word "luck" appears in The Hobbit no less than fifty-two times, I should say it is relevant. I suppose one could say it is really Providence, but one could also say Gollum's true name is Sméagol—yet the name of the page is "Gollum". Yet whatever the concept Tolkien was referring to, he refers to it as "luck" most in his work.SingingOrc 11:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm afraid I have to agree we do not need the article. There is an influence by the hand of Providence present in the Legendarium, and I believe this is discussed at least slightly in the article for Eru. But the mention of luck in the Hobbit is not as a significant concept, nor is it tied to fate/Providence, but another word for "happy chance" or "good fortune" ("a spider had luckily left a rope hanging down"). This article can do little more than define a specific word and reference a few of its uses. I feel Mercy and Pity are even more significant concepts to the Legendarium, and are discussed throughout the Lord of the Rings, but as they are used simply at face value, we do not need to create articles to define them. This article is decently referenced and not poorly written, but sadly we don't need it. Thank you for your contributions though! --Grace18 15:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I agree about removing the article. I would also argue that it's not exactly properly referenced. For example, it says something from The Hobbit "may" be about luck, but doesn't cite who says it may be. The bottom section is also almost entirely a quote about how something isn't luck. (Same for the quote on top from The Hobbit, as I mentioned in the previous discussion.) --Oromë 15:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Smeagol and Gollum are the same, while luck and providence are separated things, as Gandalf's quote points out. Joseph Pearce's quote also says the same; it is providence what Tolkien cared about, not "mere luck". I we keep this, I'd say to move it to "Providence" and focus it more with what Tolkien says in Letter 246. --LorenzoCB 16:10, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
We could. Oromë had a point about the think about saying something "may" be a reference to this concept and I removed it. However, if you have read The Hobbit, I think this is the term Tolkien used a lot in his own work. Whether it is truly "luck" or not does not directly matter, considering this is supposed to be objective, so we probably should try to use the word Tolkien uses most frequently.SingingOrc 17:03, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
The difficulty is in differentiating between various words Tolkien has used, and significant concepts in the Legendarium. Personally I do not see any special meaning of luck within Tolkien's work, but there is certainly the presence of acts of Providence. Moving this article to "Providence" and changing the central focus could resolve the problem without deleting it. --Grace18 19:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps, although I still hold Tolkien uses the word "luck" more often in his own work. I think the quote at the bottom under "Inspiration" deals with what might have been meant. Using providence feels too much like adding our own interpretation to Tolkien's words (although I certainly think that is what Tolkien meant).SingingOrc 20:59, 11 September 2021 (UTC)