Talk:Khamûl

Category for the Nazgûl

There's not a category for the Nazgûl. Where should we place them? --Ebakunin 14:33, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

Hm, a category just for Nazgûl seems like a waste but I suppose its necessary for standardization. Do we call it Nazgûl or Ringwraiths though? Maybe another main category should be made for Evil forces or something similar. --Hyarion 15:18, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

More references

I'm sure that there's more references to Khamûl; I'm struggling to remember where I read about Khamûl helping the Lord of the Nazgul find the ring by going into the Anduin -he is the only Nazgul to go in despite being afraid(I think) of water although the Lord of the Nazgul wasn't. So, does anyone know what I'm talking about?-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  16:06, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

The Hunt for the Ring (in UT)? Or Reader's Companion? I remember it had some unpublished bits from Hunt ft Ring. B-- Ederchil 16:22, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Portrayal?

I know Alan Lee and John Howe played two of the 9 kings, did it say if either of them was Khamûl? I dont have my dvds handy.--Quidon88 15:41, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

John Howe did not have any cameos. It is unknown which of the nine was Khamûl. -- Ederchil 15:53, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Your right, I always heard he did, guess I should have checked his article before saying that.--Quidon88 16:01, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Epithets of Khamul

Khamul is definitely the second Nazgul with the epithet Shadow of the East and Second Chief according to the present passage in Hunt for the Ring Chapter of Unfinished Tales. Also, even though the Black Easterling epithet was included in the rejected version of the present passage (Hunt for the Ring, note 1 said that)Does this mean that the BE epithet was rejected directly or even if it was in the rejected story, it was other epithet? Christopher Tolkien has already told us that even JRRT’s rejected (abandoned) notes and tales in UT had a meaning and significance. According to Introduction of UT, Christopher Tolkien said that: “... On the other hand, the nature and scope of his invention seems to me to place even his abandoned stories in a peculiar position.” He pointed out the importance of getting information from each story (abandoned or present). What should we consider? —Unsigned comment by 95.70.132.159 (talk • contribs).

The statement that he was an Easterling is just a speculation, because J.R.R. Tolkien rejected Black Easterling in a note. As a consequence, the entry should only say that it is "possible" that he was an easterling.I have not checked the references in the article, but I think that J.R.R. Tolkien has not said that he was the commander of Dol Guldur or that he was in Dol Guldur. --Akhorahil 03:54, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Information about Khamul from the MERP module Gorgoroth and from MERP Lords of Middle-earth - The immortal races could be added to the portrayal in adaptions, because it contains extensive information about Khamul. --Akhorahil 04:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Hammond and Scull mailed to me on 22/12/2020 and allowed me to share their ideas.

“Khamûl does seem to have been an Easterling, or Man from the East of Middle-earth, whatever that may have meant in Tolkien's mythology in terms of race, ethnicity, or customs. Tolkien provides only scanty information, calling him in one version of The Hunt for the Ring 'the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East', and in another, rejected version (as you saw), though unnamed, 'the Second Chief (the Black Easterling)'. 'The Black Easterling' of course is only another way of saying 'the Shadow of the East', black and shadow referring to a dark evil rather than to, say, skin colour.

Best wishes,

Wayne Hammond & Christina Scull''”

Besides, Carl F. Hostetter, the editor of Nature of Middle-Earth, wrote the following on this subject and again allowed me to share it.

“I see no reason whatsoever to think that Tolkien ever “rejected” the idea that Khamûl was an Easterling — i.e., a man from and/or ruling in the east of Middle-earth. I’m unsure why anyone would think otherwise.

Carl''”

Mark Fisher, the editor and owner of Encyclopedia of Arda, wrote the following about this subject and allowed me to share it.

“Regarding the rejected passage, I'm not sure that there's much we can say (since we're not told much about it, and certainly not why it was rejected). The reason for rewriting this text might have had nothing to do with Khamûl at all, so I don't think we can take it for granted that the 'Black Easterling' title was definitively rejected by Tolkien. Perhaps he simply preferred 'Shadow of the East'. In either case, I'd say the natural presumption would be that he imagined Khamûl as coming from the East. (It would be rather odd to imagine him changing his mind on this point, and then choosing 'Shadow of the East' as a title.)”

Speculations by Wayne Hammond & Christina Scull, by Carl F. Hostetter or by Mark Fisher are just speculations. The article already included the possibility that Khamûl was an Easterling, but also pointed out that the Shadow of the East byname may just refer to the fact that Dol Guldur was located in the East (from the geographical point of view of someone in Eriador). Speculations should not be phrased more strongly than a mere possibility (e.g. "It is possible that"). Readers can make up their own mind if they think that the byname in the final version is "compatible" with the byname in the rejected version. A part from correcting one spelling mistake (Khâmul instead of Khamûl) an edit is unnecessary. An epithet is a byname. It is unnecessary to replace the term byname with the term epithet. --Akhorahil (talk) 13:37, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The word Rhûn means "the East" in Sindarin. We know that "the Shadow of the East" epithet is the same with "the Shadow of the Rhûn" according to Sindarin and Tolkien's language. While expressing the eastern parts of Middle-Earth apart from Rhûn, Tolkien made a designation with a lowercase letter like "from the east, in the east, of the east" instead of the word "the East". Even for Mordor, the term "the East" was not used directly, but the words "east" were used very little in lowercase letters. Because "the East" is a proper noun in the Tolkien Universe and is equivalent to the word "Rhûn" in Sindarin we know ("Rhûn: 'East', used generally of the lands of the further east of Middle-earth" - Unfinished Tales, Index - ). I am stating this situation with some quotations below.

"... Mordor, which was occupied by Sauron, although outside his original realms 'in the East'...." (Unfinished Tales, Part 4, Ch 2, The Istari) - "... many savage tribes in the East (of old corrupted by Morgoth)...." (The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 2, Ch 10, Of Dwarves and Men) - "The Wainriders were a people, or a confederacy of many peoples, that came from the East" (The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion) - "For Sauron had acquired dominion over many savage tribes in the East" (The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 2, Ch 10, Of Dwarves and Men) - "Of the speech of Men of the East and allies of Sauron all that appears is múmak, a name of the great elephant of the Harad." (The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 2, The Appendix on Languages: Commentary) etc...

In the rejected version of the present passage about the earlier movements of the Ringwraiths in The Hunt for the Ring, Khamûl was given 2 epithets which are "the Second Chief" and "the Black Easterling". In the present passage, we see Khamûl with 2 synonymous epithets which are "the second to the Chief" and "the Shadow of the East" and in the present passage, the number of Ringwraiths in Dol Guldur has been increased and the epithets of Khamûl have been preserved. In both passages it is stated that Khamûl was from (of) the East (Rhûn) and was in the second position among the Ringwraiths. When we compare the epithets "the Black Easterling" and "the Shadow of the East", as Hammond&Scull said, "black" or "shadow" referring to a dark evil - this is a fact and not speculation. Also, that the word "the East" is Rhûn and that the word "the Easterlings" is people living in the East or Rhûn is not a speculation but a fact.

First of all, I would like to state with sources that none of what I have written below is speculation. Dol Guldur is not a place located in the east of Middle-Earth (Nor is it in "the East", Rhûn, anyway). When we look at the Map of the Middle-Earth, the fact that Dol Guldur is located in the Mirkwood and the Mirkwood is also in the east of the Anduin River does not, of course, mean that Dol Guldur is located in the east of Middle-Earth. Dol Guldur was originally known as Amon Lanc in Greenwood. There had been the capital of Oropher's Silvan Elves. The Elves had not settled in the east of Middle-Earth anyway. The east of Middle-earth is where the Easterlings had lived and settled. According to the Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch I, The Diaster of the Gladden Fields, the location of the Dol Guldur is also clearly stated to be west of the Greenwood, and there is no concept of east of the Middle-Earth we know.: "Amon Lanc, 'Naked Hill', was the highest point in the highland at the south-west corner of the Greenwood, and was so called because no trees grew on its summit. In later days it was Dol Guldur, the first stronghold of Sauron after his awakening." From the "geographical point of view of someone in Eriador" it is not correct to call Mirkwood/ Greenwood/ Dol Guldur in the east of Middle Earth or "the East (Rhûn)". When locating a location in Middle-earth, the map should be viewed in its entirety, not through the eyes of a person in any particular location. In order not to mislead readers who do not know much about "the East or Rhûn" and "the Easterlings", I think that at least the "Notes" part of the title should be corrected and detailed explanations should be given if necessary. —Unsigned comment by Bsrfrance‎ (talk • contribs).

An edit is not necessary. What you have written is still speculation (an interpretation of the meaning of words). I recommend that you read the end of the chapter The Istari in Unfinished Tales where J.R.R. Tolkien himself analizes the meaning of "the South" in Gandalf's statement about his name "Incanús in the South" where he writes that the South could mean Harad and then that it could mean Gondor. There is no further information how J.R.R. Tolkien meant "the East" in the epithet "Shadow of the East". As a consequence, it cannot be ruled out that it may have ref to the general area of Dol Guldur where Khamûl spent some time. There is a link to the Dol Guldur page on the Khamûl page and people can look on a map where Dol Guldur is and can make up their own assumption if the East could also refer to Dol Guldur. --Akhorahil (talk) 09:07, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

In the Index of Unfinished Tales: “ Rhûn: 'East', used generally of the lands of the further east of Middle-earth ”. So simple, so clear and zero speculation: Rhûn=East (This is not my words or my interpretation of the meaning of words, is just full of citation from the Index of Unfinished Tales). According to the clear index information about “East=Rhûn” in Unfinished Tales, you state that Dol Guldur is in East (Rhûn), is that acceptable? And I ask us again, is Dol Guldur really in the East (Rhûn)? The discussion is no longer about Khamûl because of you argue that Dol Guldur is in Rhûn.

Considering that the epithet “the Black Easterling” is in the rejected passage and the epithet “the Shadow of the East” is preferred over the epithet “the Black Easterling” in the present passage, you can say that it is possible that Khamûl was an Easterling. However, apart from these informations, the information in “Notes” section that Dol Guldur is located in the East (Rhûn) is completely wrong, I request this situation to be corrected.

No. Noting will be corrected. The index of Unfinished Tales was written by Christopher Tolkien, not by J.R.R. Tolkien. Any speculation by CT about Rhun does not say anything how his father meant "the East" in "Shadow of the East". It is possible that the East can have other meanings than Rhun just as South cannot only mean Harad, but also Gondor or any region south of the person that is applying the region to somebody else's origin or place of residence. The epithet the Black Easterling was used for an unnamed Ringwraith. It is speculation that this is the same Ringwraith as Khamul. End of discussion. --Akhorahil (talk) 23:24, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

When I had said that: “According the Index of Unfinished Tales ‘East=Rhûn’”, you said that: “The index of Unfinished Tales was written by Christopher Tolkien, not by J.R.R. Tolkien.”. I must say that the information in the Index is not an editorial comment. Since the point that “Rhûn=East” came straight from JRRT's mouth, his son put it in Unfinished Tales. From a telephone interview given by Tolkien in 1966, JRRT said that in the page 41 of 67: “Rhûn is the Elvish word for ‘East.’ Asia, China, Japan, and all the things which people in the west regard as far away.”(https://efanzines.com/Niekas/Niekas-18.pdf#37). JRRT clearly stated that the all places which those in the west see far are east, and the East is Rhûn. You say the discussion is over, but there is no discussion here. You reject the word that came out of Tolkien's mouth, and that it was put directly into the book by his son. This is not a discussion.

Your personal speculations and interpretations about the possible location of Rhûn and which source written by J.R.R. Tolkien his son used when he wrote the index entry for Rhûn are irrelevant. What J.R.R. Tolkien wrote or said about Rhûn is also irrelevant, because Khamûl is not called "the Shadow of Rhûn", he is called "the Shadow of the East" and J.R.R. Tolkien did not write what he meant with "the East" in this particular use of the word in "Shadow of the East". As a consequence, East can have multiple meanings. Any speculations what East could mean in this particular use in "the Shadow of the East" are just speculations and Tolkien Gateway's objective is not to present extensive descriptions of speculations and is not to only present your personal favourite speculation about the meaning of "the East" in the epithet "the Shadow of the East" or where persons would consider Dol Guldur to be when they would refer to it being in a direction. --Akhorahil (talk) 11:25, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

You say what the "the East" in the epithet “the Shadow of the East” means is open to interpretation, this is your opinion and we are not saying change it. We requested that you change the information that Dol Guldur is in the “the East (Rhûn)” location, while Tolkien stated that the East is Rhûn. The subject is not a change request related to Khamûl or his epithets. It is simply to state that Dol Guldur is not in Rhûn or in the East which means the same location according to quotation of CRT and JRRT.

No! There is no statement on the Khamûl page that says "the East (Rhûn)" and there is no "quotation" whatsoever by JRRT or CT that negates the possiblity of someone considering Dol Guldur to be in the East. There is a link to the Dol Guldur page on the Khamûl page and anybody who wants to know more about the location of Dol Guldur can click on the link and read the Dol Guldur page. Apart from that, already on the first page of the section 1 Concerning Hobbits of the Prologue of The Lord of the Rings J.R.R. Tolkien uses "they told of his journey into the East and his return" when wirting about Bilbo's travel to Mirkwood, Lake-town and the Lonely Mountain, which are not in Rhûn, but as can be seen from this passage in "the East" from the point of view of a Hobbit living in the Shire. And again in section 4 Of the Finding of the Ring in the prologue "beneath Erebor in Dale, far off in the East", or in the chapter A Conspiracy Unmasked "Their land was originally unprotected from the East; but on that side they had built a hedge: the High Hay." where the Old Forest and non Rhûn is immediately to the east of the Shire and where the High Hay protects against the Old Forest or in the chapter Strider "Against the Shadow in the East,’ said Strider quietly." or in the chapter The Voice of Saruman "Not unless the dark hands of the East stretch out to take you. Saruman!’" again not talking about Rhûn, but implying the Shadow from Mordor, which is in the East or in the chapter The Muster of Rohan "For we are already at war, as you may have seen, and you do not find us all unprepared. Gandalf the Grey has been among us, and even now we are mustering for battle in the East.’" where the East refers to Gondor, because the speaker is from Rohan and Gondor is in the East from the point of view of Rohan. --Akhorahil (talk) 13:59, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

When we consider both the epithet “the Black Easterling” and the epithet “the Shadow of the East” (which is very compatible with the epithet “the Black Easterling”) together, it seems that Khamûl is more likely to be an Easterling than not to be an Easterling, isn’t it? (when speculating) My last question, no more to come. Thanks for the discussion.