Talk:Indis

Daughter of Ingwe?

I copy/pasted my argument from the Barrow-downs forum (I'm the user Arvegil145):

"So - the idea that Indis was either the sister (an idea which was quickly discarded) or (in a later version) the niece of Ingwë has been all but accepted by the fandom in general.

This is because of the fact that in The Shibboleth of Fëanor (from c. 1968, I believe) there is a quote:

...His second wife was Indis, which means 'great or valiant woman'. No other names are recorded. She is said to have been the daughter of King Ingwë's sister. - from The names of Finwë's descendants, PoME, p. 343

However, this is not the end of the story, because:

1) There is a footnote by Tolkien to the Shibboleth, along with CT's commentary (in the brackets below), that goes like this:

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwë and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth.

.....

[As is said in the text at this point Arwen was descended from Finwë both in the line of Fingolfin (through Elrond) and in the line of Finarfin (through Celebrían); but she was also descended from Elwë (Thingol) through Elrond's mother Elwing, and through Galadriel's mother Eärwen from Olwë of Alqualondë. She was not directly descended from Ingwë, but her fore-mother Indis was (in earlier texts) the sister of Ingwë (X.261-2, etc.), or (in the present work, p. 343) the daughter of his sister. It is hard to know what my father had in mind when he wrote the opening of this note.] - note 53 to the Shibboleth, PoME, pp. 364-5 (Christopher Tolkien's commentary)

Mind you, this note is from around the same time period as the statement that Indis was Ingwë's niece. And according to Huinesoron from the Barrow-downs forum, it might very well postdate the main text in the Shibboleth.

But I think Christopher Tolkien's confusion with the above quote is most likely explained (IMO) by the fact that he wasn't aware that Tolkien already considered Indis as the daughter of Ingwë!

Which leads me to:

2) the recently published The Nature of Middle-earth. Long story short, every version of Indis' parentage in that book has her as Ingwë's daughter.

For example:

When Oromë asked for Ambassadors, Imin, Tata, and Enel were against the whole business, and refused to go. Ingwë was the eldest son of Ilion, who was in a direct line from Iminyë in the 4th generation (all having been first children and sons); sc. great-great grandson: he was tall, beautiful, beloved by the Imillië, more given to thought than the arts. His spouse was Ilwen (born FA 539). His first child was a son, Ingwil, his second a daughter Indis (born FA 934). - Generational Schemes, NoME, p. 128

This particular text, however, is dated from c. 1959 - long before the Shibboleth and the note appended to it.

Also, there's this text:

At the beginning of the March Ingwë would be 160, Finwë 112, and Elwë 106. Ingwë married about 2072 + 108 = FA 2180; his first child (Indis) was born in 2181 (so 51 at the March), his second in 2230, just before the March. Míriel, also in the 25th gen., was born about 2130? - Generational Schemes, NoME, p. 142

This text too dates from c. 1959.

While these texts are about 9 years earlier than the one in The names of Finwë's descendants, they serve to illustrate that Tolkien very much envisioned Indis as the daughter of Ingwë at multiple points in time.

And, finally:

3) As far as I can tell, belonging to a 'House', say...'House of Ingwë', implies patrilineal descent (that is, father-to-child descent) for the most part in Tolkien's writings.

So, of course, there's this quote from the Shibboleth:

There was a fair lady of the Vanyar, Indis of the House of Ingwë. She had loved Finwë in her heart, ever since the days when the Vanyar and the Noldor lived close together. - The Shibboleth of Fëanor, The case of the Quenya change of th to s, PoME, p. 334

This text also dates from c. 1968 or so.

And to top it all:

4) It just makes so much more sense for all our main characters, such as Elrond, the Dúnedain descended from Elros (such as Aragorn), Arwen, etc. to be descended from all 3 great Elf-kings!" - IvarTheBoneless (talk) 17:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)