Talk:Ilúvatar

I'm curious about something that probably should be placed in this article. Is Ilúvatar pronounced ILÚ-vatar or il-Ú-vat-ar? I had always pronounced it like the latter, but in the Silmarillion audiobook it was given as the former. --Narfil Palùrfalas 13:49, 7 August 2006 (EDT)

I've always been terrible with pronunciations but I believe I would say ILÚ-vatar. It seems Ardamir's mp3 had been moved to Eru but it is now back at Ilúvatar to help clarify. --Hyarion 00:53, 8 August 2006 (EDT)

Move

Well, following our current "one concept=one article", perhaps we should move this to Eru?--Morgan 16:37, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I follow your drift, and we certainly should not have have two articles for the same concept. However, I'm not certain whether the article should called "Eru" or "Ilúvatar". Which is more appropriate?-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  16:46, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Kind of a tough choice: The Silmarillion index gives them roughly the same importance: no name is redirected to the other. I guess we a couple of options:

• Frequency - which name appears most often?
• Notoriety - a bit subjective, but perhaps "Eru" (being simpler and easier to spell) would win here.
• Canonicity - do both names appear in The Lord of the Rings? --Morgan 16:54, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I think we should go for the frequency. Being simpler and easier to spell doesn't favour "Eru", in my opinion. And neither "Eru" nor "Ilúvatar" appear in The Lord of the Rings. However, "Eru" appears 27 times in the main body of text in The Silmarillion, meanwhile "Ilúvatar" appears 90 times. I think, therefore, that the article should be called Ilúvatar.-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  17:22, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

For my part, I definitely prefer Ilúvatar over Eru as that's the more commonly-used, but I have no evidence to back this up. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Melkor/Manwë Source

It is stated in the Ainulindalë (Silmarillion, p. 10) thus: "But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar..." as well as in the Valaquenta (Silmarillion, p. 16) thus: "Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar." 50.240.18.65 01:27, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Using 'he' or 'He'?

Since Eru is the unmistakable One Creator in Tolkien's legendarium, I have the question of whether or not using 'He/His' to refer to Eru, instead of 'he/his', would be more appropriate. I do see the use of the capitalized pronouns here and there throughout the site, but there is no consistency. Personally, albeit a bit selfishly, I strongly feel the need of using the capitalized pronouns, it may be a small touch to the this wiki, but it would make this Omniscient Character more fit in the Tolkien's world. (It might also because that I'm a somewhat religious person) What do you think? Do you think it would be a benefit to make the use capitalized pronouns a convention? Luotiansha 08:05, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Also, I think Tolkien himself used them to refer to Eru, so that is another reason. Luotiansha 08:09, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

A brief check of The Silmarillion and I cannot see when he uses capitalised He/Him in reference to Eru. Are you able to provide your sources? JR Snow 08:27, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I checked it too and indeed he didn't actually do so, so I apologize for the mistake. But my opinion is still there: in the canon books (that is, inside the legendarium), Eru is refered un-capitalized, because the canon books are narrations of Tolkien’s universe, which were written for the legendarium’s own sake, thus, Eru’s God-identity is not needed to be emphasized to that world itself.

however, the wiki pages, which are documentation of this universe, are ouside the legendarium, and they are there for the viewer’s sake, thus the indication of Eru’s God-identity is beneficial for the viewer’s understanding of Tolkien’s world. Hence my point. Anyways, that’s only my point, what are your views on this subject? Luotiansha 10:04, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm also pretty sure Tolkien uses the capitalized pronouns at some point, but we should use them as the source we are citing, besides consistency. I have in mind a complete rewriting of this article, but if anyone wishes to change that detail, go ahead. --LorenzoCB 10:20, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't catch what you meant, do you mean that the capital pronouns should only be used where a definite capital-using source can be found, and all else is to remain as it is right now? Luotiansha 15:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

If JRRT didn't capitalize Ilúvatar's pronouns, neither should we. I checked briefly and didn't find any instances where he did so. I suspect he would have considered it blasphemous to refer to his own "sub-created" deity character with the same honor afforded to the deity in whose actual reality he believed. --Mord 05:42, 22 March 2022 (UTC)