Talk:Doors of Durin
Do we have a category for this type of entry? --Ebakunin 14:59, 19 June 2006 (EDT)
- Not that I can think of, any suggestions? --Hyarion 15:03, 19 June 2006 (EDT)
- Dwarvish structures? --Narfil Palùrfalas 15:17, 19 June 2006 (EDT)
not a riddle
The inscription says "Say 'friend' and enter." Gandalf mis-translated it. Only then did it become a riddle.
Description in the narrative
The narrative describes the shapes of the door as "two trees, each bearing crescent moons". In the drawing the trees don't bear crescent moons, but their branches are shaped like crescents.
Then Gimli notices the emblems of Durin, and Legolas notices "The Tree of the High Elves". In the drawing there is no tree other than the two trees. What this Tree is, it is not explained, but for some reason Foster identifies is as Galathilion from the Silmarillion. He also says that Galathilion, bearing crescents, is an emblem of the Eldar. Sage 11:58, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- I think the point of the section is kinda missed now. The inconsistency lays on the chronology, not on the translation of the name of Khazad-dum as Moria, which is not. --LorenzoCB 12:53, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- I think we should still include the bit about the name Moria not being widely used until after it was taken over by Durin's Bane, even though it appears on the doors. It's a notable inconsistency. There's discussion of it in the The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, pp. 281-2, for the statement "Durin, Lord of Moria" on the doors. --Grace18 15:52, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- I "the name Moria not being widely used until after it was taken over by Durin's Bane" Grace18, could you give formal sources about this ? —Unsigned comment by Erendis (talk • contribs).
- "Greatest of all the mansions of the Dwarves was Khazad-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish tongue, that was afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria." Quenta Silmarillion, of the Sindar.
- "Khazad-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, that is now called the Black Pit, Moria in the Elvish tongue." Gimli in The Fellowship of the Ring
- Both quotes seem to imply that the name Moria came to be used commonly only later, after its fall. Although, to be fair, this does not mean that the name was not used by the Elves earlier, and it is quite possible that it was. However, it was a derogatory term, ("Black Chasm"), even if only named for its being underground. And as pointed out in the Reader's Companion, the doors were made during a time of friendship between the Elves and Dwarves, while Durin III was ruler of Khazad-dȗm, and, "Moria was hardly what the ruler of Khazad-dȗm would have chosen to have inscribed on his doors." There are several possible explanations with it, which are discussed in the Companion, and range from foresight on the part of Celebrimbor, to Gandalf simply translating "Hadhodrond" as he read off the inscription. In my opinion, it's still a notable inconsistency, at least worthy of a small note somewhere in the article. But you are right, it is difficult to pin down a definite source. --Grace18 01:27, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- I agree, what the Companion says is already enough. Gandalf translating "Hadhodrond" while reading Sindarin at the same time doesn't make sense. Anycase the statement about how the Sindar translated Dwarvish locations is unrelated with the topic and should be removed. --LorenzoCB 09:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- thanks Grace18 :) Your first quote is a construction of Christopher ; the original says : "Greatest of these was Khazaddum that was after called in the days of its darkness Moria" (cf HOME 11 p 201). It is probable that "Hadhodrond" for Khazad-dûm doesn't exist in the mind of Tolkien when he was writting the LotR (1st appearance in "Quendi and Eldar" dated about 1959-60). So "Moria" may be the only sindarin word for Khazad-dum at the time of Celebrimbor when Tolkien writted the LotR. And a word "given without love by the Elves" doesn't mean that this word is an insult for the Dwarves. There's no evidence that it was derogatory for dwarves' minds. The only quote about that is "given without love" in Appendix F of the LotR.
- And maybe "in the days of its darkness" refers to the time when the lord of Khazad-dûm got one of the Seven Rings (Thror had got one) which drove the Dwarves to dig more and more deeper and awaked their doom.
- But I think that after the flight of the Dwarves from their home, they used to use "Moria" as the Elves because it was no more their "khazad-dûm".
- There's too many "maybe" in this subject so it seems to me that Tolkien Gateway should expose the facts only, because conjectures are unlimited and some may solve the inconsistancy. Don't you think so ?
- ok for erasing the statement about the elves' naming, but then, what should let in that section ? Maybe talking about "a POSSIBLE inconsistency" ... or erase the section ? —Unsigned comment by Erendis (talk • contribs).
- You prove a good point. A lot of it is speculation based, and we definitely need to make that clear. But it is a relatively common question, and I think it would be good to address it. I'm good with changing the section to "A possible inconsistency", and using it to briefly discuss the question, and a couple possible explanations. I think if we do our best to present the known facts, we can leave it up to the reader to make a conclusion. Also, since we do have some reasonable arguments/explanations here, it might be worth touching up the Doors of Durin section of our Mistakes and inconsistencies page. --Grace18 13:38, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'll try to take care of it. I may take a bit to make sure I get everything right. If you or someone else wants to look over it when I change it to make sure there's no errors I would appreciate it! Additionally, should I include the three explanations offered in the Reader's Companion (foresight, reworking, translation), or leave it up to the reader? I'm a little hesitant to use just the three, because it's so speculative, and there's plenty of other options. We could probably discuss them in more depth on the Mistakes and inconsistencies page rather than here. Thoughts? --Grace18 19:53, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'll read your § with pleasure :) I wouldn't include the explanations and let readers seach their owns.