Talk:Black serpent: Difference between revisions

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Latest comment: 20 September 2020 by Gaetano
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:Entry "Haradrim", ROTK Index: "''Haradrim (folk, men, peoples of Harad) 319, 862, 886, 1046, 1061, 1069, 1098, 1107, 1111, 1145, 1146, 1159, 1243, 1269, 1368, 1372, 1373, 1374, 1382, 1402, 1425, 1429; champion of 1074; '''chieftain (the black serpent)''' 1099, 1102; men like half-trolls from Far Harad 1107; Men of Near Harad 1374; Southrons 862, 863, 882, 1099, 1107, 1110, 1131, 1253, 1293; dead Southron 863–4; Swarthy Men 1047; Swertings 845, 865''"
:Entry "Haradrim", ROTK Index: "''Haradrim (folk, men, peoples of Harad) 319, 862, 886, 1046, 1061, 1069, 1098, 1107, 1111, 1145, 1146, 1159, 1243, 1269, 1368, 1372, 1373, 1374, 1382, 1402, 1425, 1429; champion of 1074; '''chieftain (the black serpent)''' 1099, 1102; men like half-trolls from Far Harad 1107; Men of Near Harad 1374; Southrons 862, 863, 882, 1099, 1107, 1110, 1131, 1253, 1293; dead Southron 863–4; Swarthy Men 1047; Swertings 845, 865''"


J.R.R. Tolkien The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, Book Five, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, first page, second pargagraph: "Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain." [...] "Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet, he came against the white horse and the green, with great press of men; and the drawing of the scimitars of the Southrons was like a glitter of stars." Third paragraph: [...] "Right through the press drove Théoden Thengel's son, and his spear was shivered as he threw down their chieftain.Out swept his sword, and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff and bearer; and the black serpent foundered." In that paragraph what is on the standard of the Rohirrim, the white horse and the green, is also mentioned, so the paragraph is about the standards (i.e. flags) of the combattants.
::J.R.R. Tolkien The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, Book Five, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, first page, second pargagraph: ''"Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain." [...] "Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet, he came against the white horse and the green, with great press of men; and the drawing of the scimitars of the Southrons was like a glitter of stars."'' Third paragraph: ''[...] "Right through the press drove Théoden Thengel's son, and his spear was shivered as he threw down their chieftain.Out swept his sword, and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff and bearer; and the black serpent foundered."'' In that paragraph what is on the standard of the Rohirrim, the white horse and the green, is also mentioned, so the paragraph is about the standards (i.e. flags) of the combattants.


As you can see from the above quotes from the text of LOTR, no name is provided for this chieftain of the Haradrim. It is only said that his standard consisted of a black serpent upon scarlet. Apart from that some other person than that chieftain of the Haradrim must have been the bearer (the one who carried the standard), because first the chieftain of the Haradrim was thrown down by Théoden and then Théoden needed to spur "to" the standard (i.e. the standard was not thrown down yet and was not lying on the ground yet) and Théoden needed to hew at the staff (on which the standard was fixed) and the bearer (of the standard) so that the black serpent fell down (foundered). Later in this chapter Théoden after the battle with the Lord of the Nazgûl said "I felled the black serpent." That means that he made the standard with the black Serpent fall down with his sword (to fell = the cut something down). Théoden means that he made the standard of a chieftain of the enemy to have fallen down.
::As you can see from the above quotes from the text of LOTR, no name is provided for this chieftain of the Haradrim. It is only said that his standard consisted of a black serpent upon scarlet. Apart from that some other person than that chieftain of the Haradrim must have been the bearer (the one who carried the standard), because first the chieftain of the Haradrim was thrown down by Théoden and then Théoden needed to spur "to" the standard (i.e. the standard was not thrown down yet and was not lying on the ground yet) and Théoden needed to hew at the staff (on which the standard was fixed) and the bearer (of the standard) so that the black serpent fell down (foundered). Later in this chapter Théoden after the battle with the Lord of the Nazgûl said "I felled the black serpent." That means that he made the standard with the black Serpent fall down with his sword (to fell = the cut something down). Théoden means that he made the standard of a chieftain of the enemy to have fallen down.


If you read at the beginning of the Index, it says "Compiled by Christina Scull & Wayne G. Hammond" and "This list has been compiled Independent of that prepared by Nancy Smith and revised by J.R.R. Tolkien for the second edition (1965) of The Lord of the Rings and augmented in later printings;". So the index and the entry "chieftain (the black Serpent)" was not written by J.R.R. Tolkien and even this entry does not explicitly say that the chieftain was called the black Serpent. Whoever had written this entry in the index either did not mean that the chieftain was called the black Serpent by putting it in brackets after the chieftain or misunderstood the text in the chapter The Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The rest of the entries in the index are completely irrelevant.
::If you read at the beginning of the Index, it says "Compiled by Christina Scull & Wayne G. Hammond" and "This list has been compiled Independent of that prepared by Nancy Smith and revised by J.R.R. Tolkien for the second edition (1965) of The Lord of the Rings and augmented in later printings;". So the index and the entry "chieftain (the black Serpent)" was not written by J.R.R. Tolkien and even this entry does not explicitly say that the chieftain was called the black Serpent. Whoever had written this entry in the index either did not mean that the chieftain was called the black Serpent by putting it in brackets after the chieftain or misunderstood the text in the chapter The Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The rest of the entries in the index are completely irrelevant.


Only the text of the Lord of the Rings or of publications that were written after the Lord Of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien (and not by his son) and that do not conflict with what is written in the Lord of the Rings are valid sources. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 15:16, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
::Only the text of the Lord of the Rings or of publications that were written after the Lord Of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien (and not by his son) and that do not conflict with what is written in the Lord of the Rings are valid sources. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 15:16, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
 
:::I agree with your assessment but now I am wondering if this article should be about the symbol or the unnamed chieftain, or perhaps both? It seems to me that looking at the edit history the two entities were combined with some discussion about the name [[Talk:Serpent Lord|here]]. In any case some of the categories have to change. [[User:Gaetano|Gaetano]] 20:46, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:46, 20 September 2020

Whoever used undo to undo my corrections should read the chapter The Battle at the Pelennor Fields in The Return of the King and should not write speculations in here which are not based on what J.R.R. Tolkien wrote. You can Google for the key words henneth annun Theoden slays the chieftain of the Haradrim in the battle of the Pelennor in order to find the passage in that chapter. --Akhorahil 14:08, 20 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Entry "Haradrim", ROTK Index: "Haradrim (folk, men, peoples of Harad) 319, 862, 886, 1046, 1061, 1069, 1098, 1107, 1111, 1145, 1146, 1159, 1243, 1269, 1368, 1372, 1373, 1374, 1382, 1402, 1425, 1429; champion of 1074; chieftain (the black serpent) 1099, 1102; men like half-trolls from Far Harad 1107; Men of Near Harad 1374; Southrons 862, 863, 882, 1099, 1107, 1110, 1131, 1253, 1293; dead Southron 863–4; Swarthy Men 1047; Swertings 845, 865"
J.R.R. Tolkien The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, Book Five, Chapter 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, first page, second pargagraph: "Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain." [...] "Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet, he came against the white horse and the green, with great press of men; and the drawing of the scimitars of the Southrons was like a glitter of stars." Third paragraph: [...] "Right through the press drove Théoden Thengel's son, and his spear was shivered as he threw down their chieftain.Out swept his sword, and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff and bearer; and the black serpent foundered." In that paragraph what is on the standard of the Rohirrim, the white horse and the green, is also mentioned, so the paragraph is about the standards (i.e. flags) of the combattants.
As you can see from the above quotes from the text of LOTR, no name is provided for this chieftain of the Haradrim. It is only said that his standard consisted of a black serpent upon scarlet. Apart from that some other person than that chieftain of the Haradrim must have been the bearer (the one who carried the standard), because first the chieftain of the Haradrim was thrown down by Théoden and then Théoden needed to spur "to" the standard (i.e. the standard was not thrown down yet and was not lying on the ground yet) and Théoden needed to hew at the staff (on which the standard was fixed) and the bearer (of the standard) so that the black serpent fell down (foundered). Later in this chapter Théoden after the battle with the Lord of the Nazgûl said "I felled the black serpent." That means that he made the standard with the black Serpent fall down with his sword (to fell = the cut something down). Théoden means that he made the standard of a chieftain of the enemy to have fallen down.
If you read at the beginning of the Index, it says "Compiled by Christina Scull & Wayne G. Hammond" and "This list has been compiled Independent of that prepared by Nancy Smith and revised by J.R.R. Tolkien for the second edition (1965) of The Lord of the Rings and augmented in later printings;". So the index and the entry "chieftain (the black Serpent)" was not written by J.R.R. Tolkien and even this entry does not explicitly say that the chieftain was called the black Serpent. Whoever had written this entry in the index either did not mean that the chieftain was called the black Serpent by putting it in brackets after the chieftain or misunderstood the text in the chapter The Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The rest of the entries in the index are completely irrelevant.
Only the text of the Lord of the Rings or of publications that were written after the Lord Of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien (and not by his son) and that do not conflict with what is written in the Lord of the Rings are valid sources. --Akhorahil 15:16, 20 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree with your assessment but now I am wondering if this article should be about the symbol or the unnamed chieftain, or perhaps both? It seems to me that looking at the edit history the two entities were combined with some discussion about the name here. In any case some of the categories have to change. Gaetano 20:46, 20 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]