Forums:References
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A reminder to everyone, that as per Help:References you are required to provide page references for all publications apart from The Hobbit and Unfinished Tales. From this moment I will be rigorously enforcing this policy. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 19:32, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- I feel kinda confused with this policy. There are many many editions of The Hobbit, TLOTR and The Silmarillion, each one with different pagination. So I don't see the need of including pagination for TLOTR in particular, unless for very specific statements, which can otherwise be expressed including a textual cite, as many articles have. In the other hand, as far as I know most of Unfinished Tales editions have the same pagination (just like HoMe), so I have always included pagination when referencing it. --LorenzoCB 22:36, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
- I am very sorry if I am overlooking something, but I could not find what to do regarding the page numbers of The Silmarillion. Is there a specific version or publisher I should use for citations? --Grace18 14:38, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- I am confused. I agree with LorenzoCB that there are many editions of The Lord of the Rings with different paginations and I do not see the need to include page numbers from a particular edition of The Lord of the Rings. The Help:References page says that including page numbers in citations is generally "preferred" for paginated sources. In addition it says only to follow the "guidelines" to include page numbers "in citations from the 50th anniversary Edition" of The Lord of the Rings. It does not even say that the page numbers should be from the printed 50th anniversary edition of The Lord of the Rings. As anconsequence it would still allow page numbers from an e-book version of the 50uth anniversary edition of The Lord of the Rings (which will likely be different). If it is only "preferred", only a "guideline" and does not refer to the "printed" 50th anniversary edition, than I see no sufficient legitimation for a single "Administrator" to "rigourosly" "require" page references for all publications apart from The Hobbit and Unfinished Tales. A literal reading of Help:References only has a guideline to include page numbers "in citations from 50th Anniversary Edition" of the Lord of the Rings, but not in citations that are not from the 50th anniversary edition of the Lord of the Rings, but citations from other Editions of The Lord of the Rings. Many readers and contributors only have access to an e-book version of the Lord of the Rings. The page numbers in an e-book version of the 50th anniversary edition of the The Lord of the Rings are probably different from the page numbers in a printed version of the 50th anniversary edition of the Lord of the Rings any may even be different depending on the reader program. Many readers and contributors, especially if they are older or from countries where english is not the native launguage, only have access to an earlier printed edition of The Lord of the Rings or to a printed edition of The Lord of the Rings in another language with varying page numbers. "Rigorously" requiring the page numbers of the printed 50th anniversary edition of The Lord of the Rings will exclude contributions from a large number of users, because they do not have access to a printed 50th anniversary edition of The Lord of the Rings and cannot cite page numbers form there and page numbers from there will not be of use to them as readers, because they will not help them to verify or look up passages in their e-book version or in their different printed version of The Lord of the Rings. Not requiring page references for citations from The Lord of the Rings was and is a good policy that takes into account that users and contributors have access to editions of The Lord of the Rings with differing page numbers. Erik Mueller-Harder from Vermont Softworks is aware of this reality and has created The Lord of the Rings cross-reference with every paragraph of The Lord of the Rings with cross-reference page numbering for five common editions to eliminate paragraph counting for people who try to look up paragraph rather than page number citations. A wiki relies on having motivated users to contribute content and to clean up content that is not supported by facts and references (at least chapter references and headlines of chapter references). I am strongly against running a wiki like Sauron driven by the desire to order all things without consulting the users as the "free peoples" first. I rather support benevolent kings who think of the good of all users and that hold a "council" first where they gather the opinion of the free people before taking important decisions. Viva la revolucion! --Akhorahil 09:50, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- In my opinion, if all Sauron had done was require page numbers from a certain edition for citations, Middle Earth would have been a very different place. And, in the end, Mith is the authority, so what he says goes. However, I think it is fair to reassess, seeing as some confusion has occurred, and some valid points have been presented, especially regarding the Lord of the Rings. As pointed out previously, some editors (including myself) are not currently in possession of the 50th anniversary edition. Requiring page numbers in citations would make it difficult for editors such as myself to give proper citations, or even assist in fixing incorrect ones. That said, it makes perfect sense to use this edition as the standard for citations. I think that strongly encouraging editors to include page numbers for Lord of the Rings, if possible, and only using this specific edition, would be a reasonable solution to the problem. It would allow those who can to add page numbers, without preventing editors without a copy from making changes. Otherwise, it might be necessary to make clear to editors who do not have this copy to avoid editing things they cannot give the proper citations for. --Grace18 19:00, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
